(Piano music)

00:11 This podcast was recorded at State Library Victoria on Aboriginal land, the land of the Wurunjeri people of the Kulin Nations. It discusses events that occurred on the lands of the Dja Dja Wurrung people, Jagera and Turrbal peoples and Whadjuk Nyoongar people. We pay our respects to their elders past and present.

00:32 (Piano music)

00:40
PENNY: Hello and welcome back to In Those Days. I'm here today with Christina Adams.
CHRISTINA Hi Penny. How are you?
PENNY: I'm good thanks. But before we get our guest today, I just wanted to talk to you about names because we're both married ladies and you didn't change your name though when you go married, did you?
CHRISTINA No! No I didn't.
PENNY: And neither did I. But, some people when they get married do change their name and that does pose a bit of an issue then when you're looking for people in the archives because sometimes you might know someone's married name or you might know their maiden name and you don't know the change. And the good thing about Trove though is it often has marriage notices, so from the paper they'll have a notice and that gives you a really good link between the person's maiden name and then, the other thing, sometimes in the olden days, not so much now. What did, do you know what they would then call the married lady? They wouldn't use their name at all.
CHRISTINA Sorry, I just went really quiet. Kind of like married ladies back in the day.
PENNY: They didn't use their first name. My mum would have become Mrs Peter Tangey. And so sometimes in the paper if you're looking for a married lady, you don't search for her name at all.
CHRISTINA Oh, you look for her husband.
PENNY: You look for her husband's name. So these are all the little tricks, were quite relevant when I was working on today's topic.
CHRISTINA Okay.
PENNY: But, for people who are interested in helping other people in Trove, there is something that you can do because you can tag articles with the person's full name, so the next person coming along, it will be easier for them to find.
CHRISTINA So you're Trove helper?
PENNY: I like to think of myself that way.
CHRISTINA Excellent.
PENNY: Alright, well I think we should get our guest.
CHRISTINA Sounds good.

02:17 (Piano music)

02:27
PENNY: Christina, our guest is a retired school principal, he was also our first guest on the podcast ever and he's my dad. It's Peter Tangey.
PETER: G'day Pen, G'day Christina.
CHRISTINA Welcome back. Back by popular demand.
PENNY: That's right he was our most popular, oh I shouldn't say that. But people did really like your episode.
PETER: Thank you. It is strange talking to you two. Feels a bit like a rabbit in the spotlight. I don't know where the bullets are gonna fly.
PENNY: What we're talking about today, last time we were talking about Aunty Babe. Your Aunt, who lived in Newstead. And today we're going to talk about another lady you knew in Newstead. And Newstead's a town in Central Victoria. This is someone who I always knew as Pen Hall. Dad, can you tell me how you first met Pen Hall and how you knew her?
PETER: She lived in Newstead with a lady called Miss Moss. Chorkle Nelly Louise Kasner-Moss.
PENNY: You know her full name!
PETER: And my brother used to do odd-jobs for them at the house. And as my brother got older I was 12 and got Dad to talk to them and see whether I was old enough to go up and do jobs at their house. That's how I really got to know them.
PENNY: And so were they nice to you when you?
PETER: They were very, very nice to me over the years that went every Saturday morning to work with them. They called it work, but it really wasn't.
PENNY: What sort of things would you do?
PETER: There were things like there'd be cooch grass in the drain and there'd be a very small sharpened knife that every bit of cooch grass was cut with the knife and that was the way it was done. I was taught, they're paying the money, you do it the way they teach you. When I was 14 I painted the whole of the exterior house.
CHRISTINA Wow.
PENNY: Wow. That is work.
PETER: It took me a year.
CHRISTINA But he got there in the end.
PETER: Got there in the end.
PENNY: 14 to 15.
PETER: Everything was very, the way the brushes were washed and everything was done, very, and if it was warm, I'd get there about 8'o'clock. Pen would come out with a glass of cordial at half past 8, because it's very hot. And then there was always afternoon tea, morning tea, at about half past 9 that went to 10'o'clock. Always featuring my favourite cream wafer biscuits. And as the years went on and as I got older I'd still go and do jobs for them and at half past 9. Would you like a glass of sherry Peter?
CHRISTINA It's about that time.
PENNY: It's so cute. So did you know much about her earlier life?
PETER: All I know was that she was married because they were known as Miss Moss and Mrs Hall and that was the terminology used in the town. They were local town identities. Everybody knew Moss and Hall and they were very well liked even though, we could use inverted commas of course, that Chorkles was a little bit eccentric.
PENNY: Was she? I want to talk more about Chorkles. What I remember about Pen Hall, going to visit her when she was quite a, she was an old lady by the time I knew her and she always had a box of chocolates on the fridge.
CHRISTINA Nice.
PENNY: And when we'd come in we'd always be a bit nervous, like are we gonna get the chocolates but it was just guaranteed, like every single time she was like, 'Get the chocolates off the fridge Peter.'
CHRISTINA Nice.
PENNY: She was lovely.
PETER: Very kind-hearted, thoughtful. I never ever heard her raise her voice once. Not the same about Chorkles.
PENNY: Poor Chorkles. And I didn't know much about Pen Hall at all when I first looked her up in Trove and I didn't know that she'd been married, I didn't know whether, what her maiden name was or anything like that. And so I started looking for Penelope Hall and then luckily I was sort of able to go back from there. And it turns out that she came from quite a wealthy and prominent family. And that means that there was a lot of information on Trove about her and the people that she's connected with. And to be honest, there was so many different people that I could have done a whole episode on because. Usually it's like you can only find like a few articles, but this one was like this is just, they're all in the paper all the time. There's some people that I just, would just not go on that tangent. Because you could have gone down rabbit holes.
CHRISTINA Bit like the Newstead Kardashians.
PENNY: Yeah.
PETER: I think I'm gonna find out a lot more about Pen Hall than I ever, ever knew.
07:25 PENNY: I'm hoping that you'll be able to say whether these match with things that you already heard about. So she was born Penelope Wynn Corrie, in I think 1900. And her parents were Leslie and Christina.
CHRISTINA Oh, good on me.
PENNY: Yeah, and she was an only child.
PETER: She was an only child.
PENNY: Yep.
CHRISTINA Just like me.
PENNY: Oh my God I didn't even think about that.
CHRISTINA Yeah I know, because I share quite well now, it's easy to forget.
PENNY: And so did Pen Hall. And her dad was an architect and her mum was social campaigner, she was a suffragette basically. And her dad was the mayor of Brisbane from 1902-03. So in that time there's quite a lot of articles about Pen Hall going to events as a toddler. This is one that was published in the Queensland Figaro 26 February 1903. Pen Hall is only mentioned briefly in this but I think it sort of gives us an idea of the kind of world that she was moving in as a toddler.
08:23 "Presentation to the Mayoress
There is an old saying taken as gospel truth by most people to the effect that women cannot keep a secret."
CHRISTINA Look it is an issue we have as a gender.
PENNY: "However, a secret and a very big one was kept by the women of Brisbane lately. Genuine surprise and pleasure struggled for pre-eminence in the expression of the Mayoress' face last Tuesday morning, when the object of her invitation to the Town Hall on that occasion was explained to her."
So this is Pen Hall's mum. Right, she's excited.
"Mrs. Philp read the address from its neatly bound and handsomely decorated pages, and Mrs. Bocock made an appropriate speech"
CHRISTINA Well I'm glad. Last time was out of control.
PENNY: She wore clothes and everything this time."
CHRISTINA No alcohol involved.
PENNY: "as she presented the lovely pearl necklet and pendant to Mrs. Leslie Corrie, and the gold chain and amethyst necklet for little Miss Penelope Corrie, the Mayor's daughter."
So basically the secret is, they got a present.
CHRISTINA That's a pretty big secret.
PETER: So they should too.
PENNY: They've done a lovely job.
PETER: The mayor didn't get paid in those days.
PENNY: Well that's probably true.
CHRISTINA So they could cash that in.
PENNY: Straight down to the pawn shop.
"Mrs. Corrie made a very graceful and touching little speech, which showed how pleased she was with the " surprise,"".
Surprise is actually in quotation marks.
CHRISTINA Maybe she knew.
PENNY: "and the kindly thoughts which prompted it. Over a hundred ladies were present, and the fact that as many more would like to have been included in the list of the donors-had more subscriptions been needed-prove how very popular the Mayoress of 1902-3 is amongst us."
There's lots of articles like that with Penelope Corrie goes to events with her parents. And there's one where she actually meets Dame Nellie Melba.
CHRISTINA Wow.
PENNY: Dame Nellie won a coconut at the fair, which is
CHRISTINA She won a coconut?
PENNY: She won a coconut and then she gave it back.
CHRISTINA Well that's how it should work.
PENNY: And then they auctioned the coconut.
PETER: They auctioned one of Dame Nellie's coconuts.
CHRISTINA Desperate times.
PENNY: And it nearly rained and they were gonna call the fair off and then they said, Mrs, the Mayoress said 'I tell you what, if Dame Nellie will come we'll still do it, otherwise it's off. And Dame Nellie says 'I need to change my dress and then I'll be there.'
CHRISTINA Maybe she had an outer-cover with a dry-as-a-bone like texture.
PENNY: She put on a dry-as-a-bone and she got down there.
CHRISTINA pushed through.
11:03 PENNY: She won a coconut she met Penelope Corrie. And there's also a photo. This is exciting. Get ready for this. There is a photo of Pen Hall when she was Penelope Corrie at the Children's Hospital Ball and she was dressed as a nurse. Now, are you ready for this?
PETER: How old would she have been.
PENNY: She would have been two or three. Are you ready? Are you ready? Look back in time.
CHRISTINA Is there a face on that?
PENNY: No, not really.
CHRISTINA That's really scary.
PENNY: Sorry this is not a visual medium. Basically, you can just see the costume and you can't see the face. So it just looks like a sort of floating body.
CHRISTINA A bit of an apparition.
PENNY: With a hat. yeah, it's quite spooky. And I don't know if that because that's how it was in the paper, it was a failure of printing or whether it's a digitisation failure there. And then the other reason, and the other thing often from this time, every time someone went away, they, it's like printed in the paper, oh they went on holidays. The Corries have gone to stay in Sydney, it was like social media.
CHRISTINA Hashtag on holidays.
PETER: In the old days that was the social columns the country or local newspapers. Mr and Mrs so-and-so from so-and-so are visiting Mr and Mrs so-and-so from so-and-so.
CHRISTINA Fascinating news.
PENNY: And I presume sometimes you'd look through and you'd go 'ooh well, I'll go and visit them.' Or you'd be like. So basically she's a very, she's in a posh family Dad. Now did she seem posh when you knew her.
PETER: She was very refined. When I say that, manners impeccable, the way she treated people was impeccable. Never flustered, probably one of the things, and I didn't know which one it came from, Pen or Chorkles, was the amount of books that were in the house.
PENNY: Interesting.
PETER: The whole house had bookshelves down every corridor and in every bedroom. On all range of different topics that you could think of. That she come from a refined background, is not surprising to me at all.
PENNY: And did she, how was that received, like I don't want to say, like we're not, we weren't super-doopa posh and neither were most
CHRISTINA Don't undersell yourselves Tangeys.
PENNY: And neither were most people in Newstead. So how was that received? Did people like that? Did people think they were stuck-up? Or were people fine about it because she was nice.
PETER: You have to understand the context of Miss Moss and Mrs Hall.
PENNY: We might get more to that context later. But yeah,
PETER: The way that they were received, were just normal people in the community. People were always welcome to the house, particularly by Pen. Chorkles acted as a local vet and people often come with things to do with animals. And Chorkles had some medications for animals there.
CHRISTINA I like this.
PETER: But as I said, Pen would always welcome people with open arms but somebody would pull up at the gate. And Chorkles would say, yell out at the top of her voice, 'Who in the bloody hell's that, Pen?'
PENNY: That's so funny.
CHRISTINA Someone with a cat in a carry cage.
PETER: And there was no doubt that they were a different couple, that difference was accepted. And particularly when people basically stuck to themselves in one sense, but also understood that in a country community, everybody had to get on with everybody else. So nobody bagged too much out and if we go back to the first podcast with poor old Uncle Jack and his war neurosis.
PENNY: That's right yeah.
PETER: People accepted that. He was different. He was probably a pain in the backside at times. People accepted difference, in a much more tolerable way than they do now.
15:15 PENNY: That's very interesting. Penelope's dad was Leslie Corrie. And I've got a much better photo of him.
CHRISTINA Oh, he has a face. That's good.
PENNY: There he is. Now Christina do you want to describe him.
CHRISTINA To me, he looks like he could be a bit of a travelling magician. Because he's got a very impressive moustache.
PENNY: He does.
CHRISTINA And he does look like he has a bit of a supernatural quality about him.
PENNY: He has a massive forehead.
CHRISTINA Big forehead. Quite dignified looking person.
PENNY: But that moustache is definitely of its time.
CHRISTINA It's a feature.
PENNY: This is one of the buildings he designed this is the Queensland Deposit Bank building.
CHRISTINA Wow that's massive.
PENNY: From 1903. Yep. That's one of his.
PETER: He must have been very successful.
16:00 PENNY: Yeah, I think he was, yeah. Her dad died in 1918. And the Daily Mail published an obituary on the 3rd of August 1918 that saiPeter: "Though far from a strong man physically, he was a man of many intellectual qualities and possessed of boundless energy."
And the article also says that Leslie Corrie's mother and mother-in-law had died shortly before him. And so that means that Pen lost her father and two grandmothers in the space of a few weeks.
CHRISTINA Oh, that's horrible.
PETER: That's very sad.
PENNY: Yeah, when she was 18. But then, it's the '20s.
CHRISTINA Way-hey.
PENNY: So we're ready to party.
CHRISTINA Nice.
PENNY: And she was part of it. Yeah, so in the early 1920s Penelope Corrie had I think quite a nice time.
CHRISTINA She got around?
PENNY: Yep. She went to the theatre. There's like lots of articles she went to the theatre, she went to the races, she had dinner at the Governor's house. She went to a State Ball, which was attended by the Prince of Wales.
CHRISTINA Wow.
PENNY: Yes. And you can tell that she was somewhat important because sometimes the papers describe what she wore. That's how you know.
PETER: Yeah.
CHRISTINA People only care what you wear if you're someone.
17:13 PENNY: So things like this, and I think this sounds really nice, "Satin".
I don't know how to pronounce the words, but I'll have a go. She wore, "A satin charmeuse" Charmeuse?
CHRISTINA I don't even know what charmeuse is.
PENNY: "Satin charmeuse with satin plait at waist and vest of gold tissue."
CHRISTINA Just a Kleenex dipped in gold leaf.
PENNY: That's right. And also at this time she goes and stays in Sydney with her mother for quite a while. So did Pen Hall, did she ever talk about, did she say 'I met the Prince of Wales'? Did she talk about this stuff?
PETER: Never. Never ever.
PENNY: She never name-dropped anyone?
PETER: No, that wasn't her style at all. Typical of Pen she was more interested in you, than about herself.
PENNY: So she knew a lot about the goings on at Castlemaine High School?
PETER: Yeah, she probably did. It was just the way she was.
PENNY: And in Newstead did she, in the Castlemaine district did she move in any high circles there, did she attend the Mayor's Ball, or.
PETER: No. This side of Pen is a side that I never saw.
PENNY: And she didn't ever come out like dress in a big gold tissue?
PETER: No gold tissue, shammy whatevers. She used to always wear long dresses. Pen would, she would go out to do some shopping with Chorkles, Chorkles always drove. She was always very chatty to people but she certainly didn't attend opening functions of art galleries or the local ball or anything like that.
CHRISTINA Do you think she retired from all of these sorts of things, and went and hid in Newstead a little bit?
PENNY: I think she had a significant change in her life, yes. I think there was a big break.
CHRISTINA Something happened.
PETER: There was a big change, I predict.
19:15 PENNY: But here's a change. She got married. In the social whirlwind she met and became engaged to Keith Hall. He was Lieutenant Keith Hall at that time and that's how she got the name that we've always known her as. Pen Hall, Penelope Hall. And he came from a military family, his dad was a major. He was someone who I didn't go into too much 'cos it would have just been a rabbit hole. But he seems to have been quite well-liked. He was described as "popular" and "charming". And everyone always called him Sammy. And I think just before his wedding he got arrested for trespass.
CHRISTINA Okay I like that just casually slipped that in.
PENNY: Yeah, but he just took some horses onto a bridge, like I don't care.
CHRISTINA No, he didn't know that bridge was owned by someone.
20:01 PENNY: Exactly. So the wedding was written up in the paper. It's pretty boring though to be honest. But Dad's looking at me like 'But what was she wearing!' Okay here we go:
CHRISTINA What colour tissue?
PENNY: This is from the Brisbane Courier on the 7th of May.
“The youthful bride, who was given away by Mr. E. Milner Stephen, wore a frock of ivory satin grenade,"
Dunno what it is.
"Falling in rich folds"
Because they were rich.
CHRISTINA Not cheap folds.
PENNY: "Girdled at the waist with silver leaves, and posies of silver, hand-made flowers at the hem. She carried a bouquet of white sweet peas and chrysanthemums, and wore a beautiful Limerick lace veil, lent by Mrs. Alex. Davidson, of Neutral Bay."
I feel like that was condition of the loan.
CHRISTINA Yes.
PENNY: And you have to say that I loaned it to you, I'm in Neutral Bay, get it in.
CHRISTINA I'd like to be mentioned in the society pages thankyou.
PENNY: "The veil was fastened by a fillet of silver round the hair, and her string of pearls were the gift of the bridegroom.”
PETER: Well that's nice.
PENNY: Isn't that. And Dad's like 'What was her going away outfit?'
CHRISTINA What was it?
PENNY: I've got it Dad, okay, calm down. It was a navy blue
PETER: Penny, what was her going away outfit.
CHRISTINA Oh good, he took the hint!
PENNY: It “was a navy blue coat frock worn with handsome furs, and a navy hat with grey wings.”
CHRISTINA So she could just fly away.
21:24 PENNY: Take off. This is an article that was published 7th May 1922. In the Sydney Sunday Times.
PETER: So she would have been about 22.
PENNY: It's so good that she was born in 1900.
CHRISTINA It's very convenient for my basic maths on a Sunday.
PENNY: It really helps me out. And the headline is "Naming a Rose, all dressed up".
"Her father Mr Leslie Corrie of Brisbane was noted for his wonderful garden on one occasion his gardener produced the red and cream rose and asked if he might call it Penelope after Mr Corrie's little daughter. It was. And rare chance that a rose could suggest a dark girl. But Penelope just suits that richly coloured flower and the flower just suits Penelope Hall, who is dark and vivid."
And I couldn't find a picture of the Penelope rose, it was an official name for this particular rose but now it's not, there's a different rose that's now called Penelope and quite frankly, it is pale and insipid and I wish,
CHRISTINA Probably doesn't smell nice either.
22:30 PENNY: I wish we had the dark and vivid version back but unfortunately. So, I've actually got a photo of Penelope Hall and I think she does look dark and vivid. This was also from 1922.
CHRISTINA Oh yes, there she is.
PENNY: And look dad.
PETER: Oh dear.
PENNY: Doesn't it look like her?
PETER: It does, it does. She always had that arched shouldered bit.
CHRISTINA Probably needed to see a chiropractor.
PENNY: But when you're 22 it's quite elegant, like it, she looks.
PETER: Oh, she looks very refined.
PENNY: And dark and vivid I feel.
PETER: Yes, yes.
PENNY: Okay, and then after she got married, she's called Mrs Keith Hall in the papers. And it was good that I worked that out, because if I hadn't of we wouldn't known about what she did.
CHRISTINA Come to an untimely end.
PENNY: Because I was looking for Penelope Hall and no, no that's not we're calling her. Straight after she gets married, she's still very active on the Brisbane social scene. And she's going to balls, garden parties, she's hosting afternoon teas.
CHRISTINA All the stuff you and I do.
PENNY: "Her frock of jeweled net had panels of pale blue georgette bordered with fur".
CHRISTINA Do you think maybe we've maybe changed what fabrics we use? I'm a bit confused.
PENNY: I know what's georgette.
CHRISTINA And who's got a dress with furs on it. What's happening?
PENNY: In Brisbane.
CHRISTINA It sounds a bit sensory for my liking.
PENNY: Did she wear much fur?
PETER: In recollection, she may have had a coat.
PENNY: Lots of people did.
CHRISTINA It'd fit in better in Newstead than Brisbane, I would have thought.
PETER: I think she did have.
CHRISTINA Goldfields winters are chilly.
PENNY: They are very cold. Though it's not as cold as Trentham though is it Dad, in Newstead.
PETER: No, no.
PENNY: Anytime you mention Trentham to Dad he goes, 'Oh, it's cold in Trentham.' So then in 1925 they moved to South Yarra. And at that time, not as many articles about what she got up to in Melbourne.
CHRISTINA Maybe she was a small fish in a big pond.
PENNY: Maybe. Maybe she had started sort of retiring a bit from society. I don't really know. 1928 he's a Captain now, he's Captain Hall and he's moved to Perth.
CHRISTINA Did she go too?
PENNY: She went with him.
PETER: I did know that she was in Perth and he was a captain.
24:52 PENNY: Lovely. Now here's a photo of her from that time.
CHRISTINA Not quite as dark and vivid there.
PENNY: No, I think she looks a bit sad.
CHRISTINA She looks very sad.
PENNY: Does that even look like her? I dunno.
PETER: No she doesn't look a happy woman does she.
PENNY: No, to me I don't go 'that's Pen Hall'.
PETER: No I wouldn't say, straight away either.
PENNY: Yeah, she looks sad. Anyway, once she's in Perth, also not much mention of social life. She's still, every time she goes to visit her mum there's an article. When they go to visit Captain Hall's there's a little note. There was one article that I found that I was very excited about. I think you'll like it, Christina you're a dog fan?
CHRISTINA I do love a dog.
PENNY: Dad, likes dog.
CHRISTINA If you don't like dogs you can turn off now.
PENNY: Exactly, scroll forwards.
PETER: If you don't like dogs you're barking up the wrong tree.
25:44 PENNY: Well done. Okay, so this from 1934, so it's a bit later. And it's from the District's Advocate from the 4th of June. Titles, I can't pronounce this word either. "A dog's sagacity, sagacity, sagacity" (pronounced different ways). "A dog's sagacity".
"At the meeting of the W.A. Kennel Association held last week, a remarkable example of a dog's sagacity was mentioned by"
CHRISTINA What does that word mean? I need to look it up. It just says 'the quality of being sagacious'. Let me see, oh, 'the quality of having or showing understanding and the ability to make good judgement'. So this is a dog that makes good judgements.
PETER: As in sage. Sagacity.
PENNY: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
CHRISTINA I'm glad we got there.
PENNY: "A remarkable example of a dog's sagacity (pronounced wrong). Sagacity.
CHRISTINA You're not bonding with the word?
PENNY: I can't. "A remarkable example of a dog's sagacity".
PETER: Sagacity.
CHRISTINA Yes.
PENNY: "Was mentioned by Mrs P. Hall, of Mundaring."
CHRISTINA P Hall.
PENNY: Yeah, just P, yep.
"Mrs Hall said that recently, when motoring to her home, the steering rod of the car fractured, with the result that the car crashed into a tree, and she and her companion, Miss Moss"
CHRISTINA Hello Miss Moss.
PENNY: "Were both badly injured."
PETER: Oh dear.
CHRISTINA Miss Moss.
PENNY: Yes. "With them in the motor car was a cocker spaniel, Diana."
CHRISTINA Great name.
PENNY: It's a lovely name.
CHRISTINA I'm into this. I wanna know if she was a golden one. I feel she was.
PENNY: Oh, they don't say.
"She was thrown out of the car but was not hurt."
CHRISTINA No harnesses back then.
PENNY: The dog was obviously troubled because Mrs Hall could not move. After smelling around a while Diana ran to a fruit-packing shed, about a quarter of a mile distant."
CHRISTINA This is like Lassie. 'Quick! There's been an accident'.
PENNY: "There she seized one of the men by the trouser leg"
CHRISTINA Yes!
PENNY: "and persisted in that action until the man realised that something was wrong."
PETER: This is amazing.
CHRISTINA Lucky she didn't get a boot.
PENNY: This is an amazing story, isn't it. "He allowed himself to be led by Diana to the scene of the accident, and medical aid was soon summoned."
CHRISTINA Good job Diana.
PETER: I hope the dog got a cross.
PENNY: You'd reckon you'd
CHRISTINA At least a schmacko.
PENNY: A liver strip.
"Diana is a thoroughbred cocker spaniel"
CHRISTINA Oh good, here comes her lineage.
PENNY: "and an almost constant companion of Mrs Hall and Miss Moss."
PETER: What did they dog wear?
CHRISTINA What collar? What lead?
PENNY: I'm sure it was gold tissue or georgette or something nice.
CHRISTINA She was wearing one of those fun costumes from K-mart.
PENNY: "The cocker spaniel is the class of dog bred by the Nubian Kennels."
Now Nubian Kennels, I read in a different article, was run by Mrs Hall and Miss Moss. And the cocker spaniel was a constant companion of both of them.
PETER: Well what was interesting there was in the latter years, when I knew them, they always had a dog, but it was always a pug.
CHRISTINA I do love a pug.
PETER: And if one died, they'd get another one. It was definitely an inside dog. And it was fed as royally as I was at morning tea.
PENNY: So I wonder what put them off the cocker spaniel?
CHRISTINA Well you know golden cocker spaniels often have quite big behavioral issues. There's a bit of a screw loose with them.
PETER: They were running a dog shelter, by the sounds of it.
PENNY: Yeah Nubian Kennels it wasn't a dog shelter it was breeding cocker spaniels, pure. They went in shows and stuff.
CHRISTINA Maybe they became disillusioned with the breed's standards.
PETER: Probably they could sell the cocker spaniels and they happened to have a couple of pugs that nobody'd buy.
PENNY: And then they went, 'oh actually this dog's a bit more chilled out.' Although, will it save them from a house fire? I dunno. Anyway 1936 Major Hall left Perth and moved back to Melbourne.
CHRISTINA So did Miss Moss.
30:22 PENNY: So but then in 1937 her mother died. So Christina.
CHRISTINA Sorry, I thought it was me, I was getting revved up.
PENNY: No, you're fine. She had got remarried after Leslie Corrie died, she got married to another he was a University professor person. She really was doing a lot of social activism type work by then and she called A J Thynne.
"MRS. A. J. THYNNE PASSES
Was Prominent in Women's Movements
Mrs. A. J. Thynne, who was prominent in women's movements and the social life of Brisbane for many years, died yesterday after a long illness.
The deceased lady was born at Helens-burgh-on-Clyde, Scotland, 69 years ago. She was educated partly there and partly In New Zealand, where she lived with her family for some years. In 1899 she came to Brisbane and was married to Mr. Leslie Gordon Corrie, a well-known architect. Mr. Corrie was Mayor of Brisbane in 1902 and again in 1903, and Mrs Corrie worthily helped him in carry out the social duties of the position. CHARMING SPEAKER."
That's a heading.
"Indeed Mrs Corrie as she then was seemed to be naturally adapted for public life."
Like a pot plant.
CHRISTINA Shed been selectively bred.
PENNY: Yeah, that's right.
"She was a charming speaker, and was often heard to advantage in women's meetings and on the public platform. She was the prime mover in the establishment of the Queensland Women's Electoral League and took a prominent part in the inauguration of the Queensland branch of the National Council of Women."
So basically she was a big campaigner for women to vote.
PETER: When did women get the vote in Queensland?
PENNY: Well I think, didn't everyone get it after Federation because.
CHRISTINA I think so.
PENNY: Yeah, because they had it in South Australia.
PETER: In state politics.
PENNY: They had in state politics for South Australia and then when everyone Federated they couldn't disenfranchise the people who were already franchised so then everyone got it.
PETER: So they should.
PENNY: Thank you Dad for your support.
PETER: I'll say anything for popularity.

32:33 (sound quality changes) PENNY: Hello this is Penny from the future here I just wanted to correct something that I said in that section. I said that everyone got the vote after Federation, but of course that's not true, and Aboriginal people didn't get the option to vote until the 1960s.

PENNY: (sound quality returns to normal) And then there's a whole lot of other activities that she did.
"Some years after the death of Mr. Corrie his widow married the late Mr. A. J. Thynne"
Which is how she got her current name.
CHRISTINA Gosh, thanks for clearing that up.
PENNY: "And as wife of that Vice-Chancellor of the University Senate she took a practical interest in educational matters. Mrs. Thynne's only daughter, Mrs. Penelope Hall, came from Melbourne to attend her mother in her last illness. The funeral, which was a private one, took place to the Crematorium this morning."
PETER: That sounds very much like Pen, though to go and look after her mother.
PENNY: She always, like, throughout all the years the most consistent thing is, notes in the paper, she went to visit her mother and there's a quite extended period that she visited her in this time. Look at her.
CHRISTINA It's a good.
PETER: That's Mum.
PENNY: She looks like a suffragette to me.
CHRISTINA A very stylish one.
PENNY: Yes, she's got a big hat.
CHRISTINA It's a statement hat. And a very, very small waist.
PENNY: Ver small waist. This was probably earlier in her life. It's hard to tell, half of her face is completely black. It's one of the problems with photos in the newspaper.
CHRISTINA It's a bit Phantom of the Opera.
34:06 PENNY: It's very Phantom of the Opera. But anyway, that was 1937 but another big thing happened in Pen Hall's life in 1937 and this is from the Melbourne Herald 12th of April 1937. And it's a list of divorce decrees and there's this one.
"Keith Aitken Hall, 40. of Victoria Barracks, officer of the Permanent Military Forces, against Penelope Wynn Hall, 34, of Mooroolbark--desertion.”
CHRISTINA Desertion.
PENNY: And so this is saying that she deserted him. But who knows.
CHRISTINA Noone hired a private investigator.
PETER: So in those days I think, one party had to file for divorce.
CHRISTINA There had to be a fault didn't there.
PETER: And sometimes if it was agreed, one party would just volunteer to do that.
34:54 PENNY: Yeah, so that could be it. He did get engaged so that was in April, he was engaged in August.
CHRISTINA So he really took it hard.
PENNY: To Beryl Jeanes of Perth.
CHRISTINA Onya Bezza.
PENNY: And he was still living in Melbourne.
PETER: What did she wear at her wedding?
PENNY: That was one of the rabbitholes that I
PETER: Denim?
CHRISTINA Double denim.
PENNY: I don't think she was quite as classy as Pen Hall to be honest.
CHRISTINA No he really stepped down.
PENNY: But I had to leave Beryl alone because I wanted to chase Beryl down that rabbithole.
CHRISTINA I wanna chase Beryl.
PENNY: I wanted to know more about Beryl, but I just
PETER: I wonder if they had a child called Levi.
CHRISTINA Strauss.
PENNY: He wasn't in Perth so she was in Perth so he actually wired over to her on the telegram. I think he proposed over telegram.
CHRISTINA Oh gosh that's romantic. Did he send the ring via post.
PENNY: And he only moved to Melbourne in 1936.
PETER: And he met this woman in
PENNY: So he must have met her before he left Perth. Came to Melbourne, got divorced, then said 'What about it Beryl?'
CHRISTINA Come on, Bez.
PENNY: And she was super pumped actually. She really wanted to.
PETER: So it would seem that the divorce was about him getting engaged again.
PENNY: It feels that way, but then I think maybe most of them had really moved on before they got divorced but in the 1930s divorce was not common at all.
CHRISTINA No I think you were encouraged to suck it up and get on with it. You find an outside interest and push through.
PENNY: Exactly.
PETER: And I think it was probably fortunate that Pen wasn't a Catholic too.
PENNY: Oh, that's a good point, yeah. And so, and did you ever here anything about her husband? Like you knew she'd been married to a Captain, he actually became a major in the end, before he married Beryl.
PETER: Only that she was married and her name was Mrs Hall.
PENNY: So you knew that she was divorced then?
PETER: Yes, yes.
PENNY: Were there any other divorced people in Newstead?
PETER: How do I know? You know, I was still a kid.
PENNY: But did anyone, like did people get divorced? Was that something that happened and like there'd be a scandal.
PETER: Not very often I don't think.
PENNY: So then, from the 1930s when that ended, I don't when she moved to Newstead to be honest.
PETER: I can't definitively tell you this but they didn't move to Newstead straight away. This is Miss Moss and Mrs Hall. They had the post office at Welshman's Reef and they run the post office of Welshman's Reef for a number of years.
PENNY: Was there a lot, I suppose there were more people living in Welshman's Reef then. They had their own Post Office.
PETER: Yeah.
CHRISTINA Where's Welshman's Reef?
PENNY: Halfway between Maldon and Newstead.
CHRISTINA Why is it a reef in the middle?
PENNY: I've never thought about that.
PETER: They mined a bit of...Imagine, back in the old days when there's a bit of a gold rush going on. If an American prospector found some gold, he might call it California Gully.
PENNY: Right.
PETER: If a person who lives in the west of Great Britain finds a reef, they might call it Welshman's Reef.
CHRISTINA Okay. Alright.
PENNY: Okay, it was Welsh people who found it, is that what we're thinking.
PETER: I think so. There was some deep lead mining there. There's certainly gold still there.
PENNY: Oh, shall we go?
CHRISTINA Let's go. I'm on.
PETER: And I don't recall the statistics but that gold field in its heyday might have had 5,000 people there.
PENNY: Oh my God.
PETER: And 6,000 shanties. There was almost one more pub than there were people. Of course Welshman's Reef is a lot smaller now.
PENNY: Yes, but in the 40s there would have been more people than there are now. And also people didn't travel as far for whatever they needed.
PETER: And I believe they had the telephone there at the time, I'm not sure, but I think they did. But they did all the things that post office people do.
PENNY: So they obviously needed to work. Or do you think they just liked it?
PETER: Well remember Chorkles still had that sideline of the veterinary.
PENNY: She was selling drugs to the dogs.
CHRISTINA Ketamine.
PETER: They always, inverted commas, weren't short of money.
PENNY: Yeah, well I think,
PETER: I know they had money invested in shares and things like that. But they never flaunted it, never owed anybody a cent. They would have been earning their money. And I think when they were at Welshman's Reef they might have been milking 3 or 4 cows and sending the cream to the butter factory.
PENNY: God, I don't do anything.
CHRISTINA Gosh, that'd be such a good side hustle. Just get a few cows.
39:48 PENNY: Oh God, Christina's had another idea. Okay I'll show you a photo of Chorkles, when she was in 1929 and she was a university student. So she's from Perth, her whole family lived in Perth, but she came to Melbourne University to go to uni. So I think the books might have been hers. I'm not saying Pen wasn't a big reader but she
PETER: I think a lot of the books wouldn't have been Chorkle's.
PENNY: So that's Chorkles. Does that look like Chorkles? I never met Chorkles. It's hard to say.
PETER: I am little bit fascinated by that picture.
PENNY: Oh, I didn't intend to fascinate.
PETER: Because it appears that Chorkles is wearing a dress.
PENNY: Did Chorkles not wear dresses? Because I've got some descriptions of her outfits.
PETER: Chorkles told my dad when she was about 16 they used to have deb balls and that she was made to go to this deb ball in this dress and she said, 'You know Bill I never felt so naked in all my life.' And, in all the times that I knew Chorkles, she dressed like a man, and swore like a man. And behaved in every attribute of being a man.
PENNY: That's fascinating.
PETER: But, she was always Miss Moss.
PENNY: Yes, interesting. I wish, because I did find a few things about her going to social events, because she also came from a well-off family.
PETER: I think her father was a doctor.
PENNY: Yes, and so, there's a few descriptions but I wonder if I could actually find that debutante ball one where she
PETER: Felt naked.
PENNY: Yeah, and we could probably find out was it georgette.
CHRISTINA Did it have furs on it.
PENNY: Was it satin. What was the trim, come on.
CHRISTINA Tissues.
PENNY: I think everyone's got this now. Pen Hall and Chorkles were obviously a couple. They were gay.
CHRISTINA I thought they just bred dogs together.
PETER: Hang on settle down a bit here. Just have the definitive answer to that, but only just. Miss Moss and Mrs Hall were very highly respected in the community. It was nobodies business, nobody discussed those things. Although I can remember Dad had gone up to help, he'd got a phone call from Chorkles to come up because Pen had had a fall and landed her head on the corner of the upright head of the bed. Chorkles was telling Dad all about it, because Pen had to go to hospital and she said, 'Bill she said, I leant over to kiss Pen goodnight and there was blood everywhere. Bloody blood everywhere.'
CHRISTINA I think you have given us the answer.
PETER: I wish to comment no further about that.
CHRISTINA No comment and at this point Peter's becoming a bit pixelated.
PENNY: And your dad obviously repeated that, but he wasn't, like people
PETER: He didn't go around Newstead saying that
PENNY: No, but to you. In some ways the town was accepting but only if it wasn't, like you couldn't actually say, it's not like they could have an anniversary dinner and have people over.
PETER: Oh, definitely not. It wasn't, it
PENNY: It was like a don't ask, don't tell basically.
PETER: In that era, all the rainbow stuff haven't been invented. And when I said people accepted difference, they ignored difference probably is a better word to put. But nobody hung it on them because they were a couple. Because the community needed them.
PENNY: Yeah right because they had to get the ketamine.
PETER: Works both ways.
CHRISTINA Gotta get the ketamine.
PENNY: And probably Pen smoothed the way quite a bit in terms of her being quite sociable and quite friendly and nice.
PETER: Pen, it was probably why, Chorkles didn't feel comfortable at those major societal functions, so Pen didn't feel comfortable. And moved away from that completely.
PENNY: It's like she had two completely different lives.
PETER: And my oldest sister Bernadette, we weren't from a family who had a history of tertiary education at all but when she was Year 8 and 9 she used to go up to Moss and Hall's for French lessons.
PENNY: Which one of them spoke
PETER: It was mainly Chorkles. But if Chorkles got called out to, because a cow has milk fever say, Pen would step in. She was very well educated too.
PENNY: And when did Chorkles die?
PETER: I can't recall the year. I feel a bit ashamed that I can't. I believe that it was probably in the early-80s. Perhaps about '82.
PENNY: So I would never have met Chorkles. And how often did we actually go and visit? Because then Pen Hall was living in Castlemaine, which is about 15 minutes from Newstead and so sometimes when we went to visit Nana and Pa we would go and visit Pen Hall as well, but not every time. So how often would we go? I don't even know.
PETER: We didn't go a lot. Probably once every 6 months, something like that.
45:37 PENNY: But yeah, I remember it being a regular thing. One of the first things I found because it includes her actual name in it, but in terms of chronology the last article about Pen Hall was from 1990 and it was actually piece in the Australian Jewish News. And it was about the Jewish Museum of Australia acquiring a portrait that they were very excited about, by the artist Henry William Pickersgill. You know Pickersgill. Pickers.
CHRISTINA Onya Pick.
PENNY: And it was donated by Penelope Hall. It was a portrait of Reuben Moss, who was Jewish.
PETER: I believe that I can remember that painting in the house.
PENNY: Yes, that's what I wanted to ask you.
PETER: Because they did have some paintings, not many. And I remember there was this one that sort of stood out a bit.
PENNY: And when I first heard this, because this was the first thing I found, I though 'why does she, she wasn't Jewish' and then of course, the Moss connection. So this is the picture Dad. That's Reuben Moss.
CHRISTINA That's a very feminine child.
PENNY: Well they were in those days.
PETER: I think I have definitely seen that picture.
PENNY: Anyway you can go and see again, it's in the Jewish Museum. So you remember, where was it in her house?
PETER: I think it was in her hallway.
PENNY: And I think that's Chorkles grandfather. There's a wing of a local hospital that's in her name as well.
PETER: Yes, she was a wonderful philanthropist. And really, it's probably no surprise that there were no children of Moss and Hall.
PENNY: And she didn't have any children with Major Hall.
PETER: No, that was interesting. Now don't go suggesting anything.
PENNY: We know she wasn't a beard. Because he was right into Beryl as soon as.
CHRISTINA Really got involved with Beryl.
PETER: Penny certainly had significant resources and she decided that she would donate them to the local hospital to build a wing for elderly people who need care and it was called, very appropriately, the Pen Hall wing.
PENNY: Which hospital's that?
PETER: That's at Castlemaine.
PENNY: So that must have been a very significant donation.
PETER: Oh, most definitely.
PENNY: Well I guess she was an only child and she would have, and her parents were wealth. And by the time her mother died, her second husband had also died so she would have. PETER: And I think Chorkles had some resources too. It's very interesting like our Aunty Jean was in Pen Hall before she died. And quite a numbe rof people that knew Pen Hall are then in the old people's home that was named after her. It was the most succesful and appreciated donation to the community.
PENNY: When did Pen Hall die? I feel ashamed I can't remember.
PETER: That was in the late-90s, I believe.
PENNY: I'm really, I don't remember the funeral. What happened?
PETER: For some reason I wasn't able to go, so we didn't go and whether there may have just been a private burial because Pen wouldn't have wanted any fuss or anything like that. I don't know.
PENNY: I think she has other, because we're obviously not related to her, she's just a family friend. I think some of her, she does have relatives from different branches of the family who are quite interested in her history and I think someone's written a family history of her as well.
PETER: Well that's terrific.
49:31 PENNY: So that's really good. Is there anything else you wanted to say about her that we haven't?
PETER: There's two things I would say, one is that, and this is bragging a bit. But I'm getting old, you're allowed to do this, that Pen and Chorkles were talking to my father one day over a cuppa tea.
CHRISTINA Not a sherry.
PETER: And one of them said, if we had a son, we'd like him to be just like Peter.
PENNY: That is so beautiful.
CHRISTINA That's very cute.
PETER: And the other one is, Penny, I wonder you're called Penelope?
CHRISTINA Yes, I did wonder.
PENNY: This was gonna be my final question.
CHRISTINA Georgina was not worthy, it was YOU who took the title.
PETER: I believe, in fact I know, such a wonderful gentle person and I think you should be honored to share her name Penny.
PENNY: Thank you so much. I am, like I really am. I always had really positive memories of her.
CHRISTINA You need to get a pug. My friend has pug puppies at the moment.
PETER: I think if Moss and Hall were still alive they'd be saying to me 'oh if we had a daughter, we wish she was just like Penelope.'
PENNY: That's brought it all around full circle, hasn't it.
CHRISTINA It has. And I think Moss and Hall would be a great label for something.
PENNY: It could be a really posh clothes.
CHRISTINA Clothing or chocolate, or something good.
PENNY: And what you'd have is you'd have really sensible pants and then you'd have, that would be the Moss part of it. And then the Hall would be, you'd have some glamorous dresses.
PETER: Your frills.
CHRISTINA See there you go.
PENNY: Or it would be like, soaps and gardening gloves.
PETER: Real thick farmers pants.
CHRISTINA A range of Equestrian wear perhaps.
PETER: Then all the tulle and all that sort of stuff.
PENNY: I mean, cos the thing, I mean 'cos I always, we met Pen Hall, and I remember when I went 'oh is Pen Hall gay' but you know I was quite a bit older and it did come as a bit of an ooh, that's quite cool and then I think I probably asked you about it and you said, 'oh yeah people were just sort of fine with it. Like everyone just ignored' like you said, ignored.
CHRISTINA And probably less controversial for two women to be living together at that time than two men perhaps.
PETER: I think that would probably be the case.
PENNY: And see this is what I remember, this is one of the things that's really sad that people were so homophobic when I was growing up and no, and certainly no teenager at my school ever said they were gay and when I was in primary school - I remember, do you remember Peter who cut Nana's hair?
PETER: Yeah, he lived in the corner.
PENNY: He lived in the white house on the corner. I remember a kid from school who is now still not one of my favourite people, but I remember him telling us, 'you know Peter's a...' homophobic slur. And we all just went 'that's shocking' everyone was shocked, but I'd certainly never heard from my family or anyone that being gay was bad, but it was just not spoken about and just so shocking and it must have just been so hard for the kids in the class who I now know were gay it must have just been sitting there feeling like shit.
CHRISTINA Really uncomfortable.
PENNY: So then to hear that all that time earlier there was a couple getting out in the community, it's nice to hear that they at least had a fairly nice life together.
PETER: It was a wonderful, really. It suited them both. Pen, very traditional man and woman roles. Pen did all of the cooking, cooked everything. And Chorkles would order the meals. And often they had the same thing to eat every day, like on Friday they'd have this
CHRISTINA Monday it's fish.
PENNY: Well that's easier for planning, isn't it.
CHRISTINA I think we're falling into that pattern ourselves a bit.
PENNY: Are you?
CHRISTINA Yes, we're in a meal rut at the moment. Need to get out of it.
PENNY: We have restricted. It's difficult to find something everyone likes.
PETER: Pen used to cook on the stove of course, you know the wood stove.
PENNY: Oh my god. But this is funny because I can't imagine her doing that when she was a socialite
PETER: Probably she had someone to do it for her.
PENNY: Yeah, so she must have learned at some point how to
PETER: But it was Chorkles job to get the wood, which meant it was my job to get the wood. And I had to, every Saturday I would chop up wood into 4 different sizes, that easy for Pen with the fire. It was very considerate of Chorkles to think of that but I don't think Chorkles ever put any wood on the fire. Well, thank you Christina, thank you Pen.
PENNY: Thank you for coming dad. I'm really glad to confirm, because I have always wondered, if I was named after Pen Hall.
PETER: You were definitely named after Penelope Hall.
CHRISTINA That's fantastic.
PENNY: I'm so excited.
(piano music)