(piano music)

00:09 This podcast was recorded on Aboriginal land, the land of the Wurunjeri people of the Kulin Nations. This episode also discusses events that occurred on the lands of the Wiradjuri people. We pay our respects to their elders past and present.

00:25 (piano music)

00:34 P: Hello, it's Penny here. Today on In Those Days we’re gonna to be talking to my friend Nerida Lloyd about her great aunts Pat and Nonie. Nerida and I went to school together and I can remember Nerida telling me that Pat would sit in an armchair in the evenings and say, ‘We’re into the gloaming now’. And it was the first time I’d heard the word ‘gloaming’, and it was quite a vivid image of an old lady pronouncing the end of the light. And Nerida and I would kind of laugh about how it was a bit depressing. So it was really interesting to research Pat and Nonie’s younger days and to hear Nerida’s stories about them before they got to the gloaming. But now I actually have sort of a different view of gloaming. I really hope that I can make it to that time. One of my aims is to make it into my eighties and for Nerida and I to be sitting somewhere, just after sunset, having a G&T and one of us can say to the other ‘Well, we’re into the gloaming now’.
01:36 (Piano music)

P: Hello Christina.

C: Hi Penny.

P: Welcome back to In Those Days.

C: Thanks.

P: As you would know Christina there's a lot of biases in the newspaper record.

C: So many biases.

P: Not everybody in society gets written about in the same way.

C: Disappointing.

P: Yeah, absolutely. But another big bias is not just about who's being written about but who's doing the writing and journalists, there's more female journalists now, but in the past they were very rare and also even when there were women journalists they didn't always get a byline with their own name like the men did. So they often a pseudonym.

C: A male pseudonym.

P: Yeah, or like just a weird word for a name sometimes even. And then also then sometimes some of the stuff that they'd write it wouldn't be considered journalism, that would be the "gossip" column or

C: Yeah, cos that's what women are good at and they should really stick to that.

P: Well yeah. One thing that Trove's done, which I think is really good is that they've created a tag for women journalists that is 'bold types'

C: Is is a pink flag?

P: It's a pink flag and some flowers and like. All of it's in really swirly writing.

C: So that we know it's a girl.

P: And it's like more interesting, you're like attracted to it.

C: Yeah, and it probably costs a bit more too.

P: That's right. And so they've got all these tags so you can go and you can read them and you can find all these, the work that female journalists were doing.

C: Excellent.

P: So now it's time for us to move on to our lovely guest today, who is my friend, Nerida Lloyd.

03:23 N: Hello

C: Hello Nerida.

P: And we were at school together.

N: Yes we were.

P: And Nerida is now a cool librarian.

N: Yes. Very familiar with Trove as well. I use it pretty much every day. Well let's just say I'm a contributor rather than. I'm in the back end of Trove. I'm adding stuff.

P: But I don't want. I don't to say exactly, cos Nerida works somewhere really cool but I don't necessarily want to say

C: Classified

P: Yeah. Because she's not representing that workplace on this podcast. So what do you do in Trove in your job?

N: Oh, I add catalogue records. So that's a bit of a giveaway of what kind work I do.

C: Okay, how fascinating.

P: Yeah.

N: So mostly parliamentary papers and reports. I don't do much original cataloguing but yes I add things to Trove.

P: That's like a whole different side to it isn't it.

N: It's not the newspapers it's the actual. If you wanted a Victorian parliamentary paper, it's probably been catalogued by me within the past 4 years or so.

C: Do you get a little notification that you've done that with Trove, or is it anonymous but important work.

N: Well it's got our tag on it.

C: Right, okay.

N: But, no.

P: But we know. And you know if your heart.

N: That's right.

C: That's what matters.

N: And I can tell when someone else has done it, because it's terrible. No not really. Sometimes.

P: So what I wanted to talk to Nerida about today is her two great aunts Pat and Nonie. And always heard a lot about Pat and Nonie growing up because Nerida was always like 'Oh, we've gotta go visit Pat and Nonie' Pat and Nonie this. Pat and Nonie that.

N: Always Pat and Nonie.

P: Never separate. And so I thought I'll look them up in Trove. And at first I had the wrong surname but once I got the last name, there actually were quite a few things about them in Trove. So how much, first of all Nerida, who were Pat and Nonie?

N: So they are my spinster great aunts.

P: We love spinster great aunts on this show.

C: Did they have cats too?

N: No! Not at all keen on cats. Will not have a cat. Nonie was very anti-cats.

C: Definite ideas.

N: Mum had a couple of cats and Nonie wasn't keen at all. But my mum's mum died when she was quite young, so they were sort of my grandmothers. More Nonie than Pat. Pat was just there

C: The omnipresent Pat.

P: So I sometimes get them a bit confused. So Pat. What were their personalities like? How do you distinguish Pat and Nonie?

N: Nonie was very nurturing. She was, the one she'd come and look after us in Castlemaine and she was more of the grandmother and then Pat was a bit mad. I would call her eccentric.

P: And I think it will be interesting to see if that comes through in any of the things I found about them. Their sister, Joan, was your grandmother.

N: That's right. And she was Pat's twin? I think.

P: Yes. I think that's right. And so, the twins were older?

N: Yes. And Nonie's real name is Noreen. But never call her that, because she will not answer to it. Or wouldn't have. She's dead now.

P: Well she was always in the paper as Nonie.

N: Yes, I think she decided from quite a young age that Noreen wasn't the one.

P: If I had of known I would have looked up Noreen so I'll do that later. And how much do you know about their early life?

N: I know that, I don't think their mum was around for long. I think they were mostly with their dad and their dad was an alcoholic who owned a pub and was kind of a piece of poo. That's really all I know. Very Catholic. Very Catholic.

P: Yes, yes. Their mother died in 1927, and so the twins would have been about 5 and then Nonie would have been even younger. So I think that's, very sad. And it's interesting as well when you think about Nonie then going on to look after your mum because her mum died. This is the little obituary death notice from the Corowa Free Press.

N: For their Mum?

P: Yeah.

N: What was her name?

P: Catherine. From Friday 23 September 1927

“We regret having to record the death of Catherine, wife of Mr. J. J. McCarthy, of the Court House Hotel, Albury, which occurred on Sunday night after a week's illness. The cause of death was pneumonia. Deceased was a sister of Mr. Thomas Murphy, of Brocklesby, and a cousin of the Nagles and Nolans, of Corowa"

N: The Nagles and Nolans.

P: Are you still in touch with the Nagles and Nolans?

N: No. I am disappointed to have not known the Nagles and Nolans.

C: They sound like a fun time.

N: They do, don't they?

C: Maybe they own a bakery. The Nagles and Nolans.

P: Nagles and Nolans. Welcome.

N: Wow. Never heard of them.

P: Yeah, sad, oh well maybe they'll get in touch after this.

"and Mesdames T. and J. Coughlan. of Wagga, and late of Quat Quatta, and was well and popularly known In the Brocklesby and Walbundrie districts."

Not in Quat Quatta. They fucking hated her in Quat Quatta.

C: Yeah they've got standards those Quo Quattians.

"She leaves a husband and three children to mourn their loss. The remains of deceased were inter-red in the Corowa cemetery on Tuesday.”

So that is a pretty rough start so there's three little girls living with their dad in the pub. Now you've already mentioned that maybe he was not the best.

N: That's what I have been informed.

P: I've got a picture of the pub.

N: What was the pub's name again.

P: Ah McCarthy's. Oh, it's the Court House Hotel, but I think it was also, had his name on it.

C: Solid building.

P: It is a solid building.

N: It looks quite nice.

P: Yeah, it's a Lincraft now but

C: Are there still Lincrafts available, are there?

P: God yes.

N: Oh yes.

C: Sorry, sorry.

N: It has gone downhill. Spotlight. I'm team Spotlight now.

P: Do you prefer Spotlight.

N: I do. Because Spotlight has more of a natural wool selection rather than the acrylic blends, which I hate. I could talk about Spotlight versus Lincraft for awhile.

P: Because I think of Lincraft as classier than Spotlight, but I think

N: Yeah, used to be. Has changed.

P: In the past. And this J. J. McCarthy, that's your great-grandfather so

N: But J. J. makes him sound like a real boss.

P: Which, I think was Joe.

C: J. J.

N: Yeah, Joseph.

P: And I don't think he remarried either, which is kind of, I think of that as a bit rare

C: A lot of men in mourning confuse that for lust and off they go again.

P: I know, there's nothing more attractive than a newly widowed man

N: And a publican at that, you know. A bit of cash.

C: A lot of benefits.

N: Yes! yes!

10:30 P: I found this little profile of him and it was from 1949, so it's a little bit later on. But it's from a column called 'Border Personalities' by Dudley Gordon.

C: Not borderline personalities.

N: No, because Albury Wodonga line. They're being a bit cute.

C: Yeah.

P: "Mr. J. J. McCarthy, "Mine Host" at the Court House Hotel, was bookkeeper on Walbundrie Station. After World War I he won a block when the station was cut up, but a few years later came to Albury to take over the Court House Hotel. He is now president of the U.L.V.A. in Albury"

The ULVA is the United Licensed Victuallers Association.

N: Is that pub stuff?

P: Pub stuff. Pub people.

C: Pub people.

P: "He's the President of St. Patrick's Racing Club"

C: Oh, I'm seeing a theme.

P: "vice-president Albury Racing Club and the Mercy Hospital Racing Club"

The hospital has a racing club.

C: Booze and horses.

P: "He's always had an interest in the turf."

N: Is that what it says in there, or you just adding?

P: Yeah, no.

"Mr. McCarthy owned Danora, who ran second in the 1945 Albury Cup."

Which doesn't seem like a great lifetime acheivement but anyway. TAIL-PIECE : He's envied for the shape of his hat.”

C: What?

P: He has good hats. Apparently he was known for wearing. Yeah he wore fancy hats.

N: I'm just trying to remember if I've seen...they must have had a photo of him at their house. Surely.

P: Well, did he look anything like this, because there's a cartoon? Which I think.

N: Does he have a hat?

P: But I'm not 100% sure if this cartoon is of the columnist or of your?

N: Well is he wearing a hat?

P: He's not wearing a hat, which confused me.

N: Well, it's probably the columnist then.

P: Well it probably is. And it does say 'Dudley Gordon' underneath but I don't know, anyway, what do you think? Is that him? Doesn't look like you, I've gotta be honest.

N: No. Unsure. He is holding a drink though.

P: Yeah, so that's what confused me.

N: I don't know. I do remember they had a photo of their mum and she was wearing like, looked like turn of the century outfit, which would be fitting. But I don't ever remember seeing a photo of their dad, there probably was one though, surely.

C: There must have been.

P: So did you ever hear anything specific about him?

N: No. Maybe. Probably, but I've forgotten because, I mean, when you're a child, you don't think that your family has a life outside of when you were there.

13:06 P: So they both went to St Joseph's school in Albury and there was an article about their exam results in 1937 and they both did really well though Nonie got 97 for shorthand and Pat only got 87. But Pat did beat Nonie in bookkeeping so.

N: Well I think Pat went on to be a sort of administrative, secretary sort of person. Who would need shorthand.

P: Well Pat when, then she for a few years was studying for a few years in Lilydale.

N: Nursing, right?

P: I dunno what she was studying, the papers always just said. She was 'Miss Pat McCarthy of Lilydale' for awhile and it said she was going there to study. So did she do nursing?

N: I think so.

P: Oh, that wouldn't have worked out.

N: That didn't work out at all.

P: Because then she did come back and live in the pub again. But what about Nonie, what did she do?

N: She worked at the blood bank.

14:00 P: But also when they lived in Albury they did seem to have quite active social lives. This is from the Border Morning Mail Tuesday 30 March 1943 and it's "TWIN DAUGHTERS' BIRTHDAY". And this was the first thing I found and this is why I sent Nerida a text message, cos I just looked up their names and I'm like "Were Pat and Nonie twins?" Just like out of nowhere, just checking I had the right people.

"The many friends of Mr J. J. McCarthy, of the Court House Hotel, enjoyed his hospitality on Friday and Saturday evenings on the unique occasion of the majority of his twin daughters. Misses Joan and Pat McCarthy."

N: I mean, why are we so excited about twins turning 18?

P: Well, I think they're turning 21 actually. Yeah. Sorry, that is much more exciting.

"Friday evening was devoted to the elder people, about 50 of whom played cards and enjoyed musical and vocal items, and after supper the room was cleared for dancing."

I quite like that idea of like you don't have a party where try to include everyone.

C: No.

P: You just have the old people one night and the young people the next day.

C: And they've got the timing right the oldies first and the then the young ones next. When everyone's still got the energy.

"Large bowls of tawny and multicolored dahlias were arranged in the rooms,"

C: Tawny.

N: Isn't tawny like brown.

C: Or frogmouth?

N: There's a bunch brown flowers?

P: Brown flowers.

C: Hot.

N: Very festive.

P: "with lower bowls on the supper table. Dr Harold C. Worch was chairman and during supper, at which the guests of honor cut the cake with its 21 candles. Father Suna proposed their health, to which Mr A. H. Nowland responded on their behalf."

C: Oh because they're ladies they can't speak.

P: So they're not even allowed to talk. Oh I think, someone has found, is that a photo of a brown dahlia. Oh. I guess they're nice.

C: I feel like we've just given you a terrible gift and you're putting on a game face.

N: But a brown flower suggests that it is old and rotting.

C: Bit shit.

P: "Mr Gordon Davidson proposed the toast to their father and relatives, to which Mr McCarthy responded."

He would have been so pissed.

N: Good job on getting these two to 21.

C: So many men with so many words.

P: Exactly.

"After numerous other speeches, both girls were presented with large golden keys."

That'll be handy.

C: Bet that didn't open much.

P: "Miss Pat McCarthy chose a frock of sea green crepe, the bodice of which was studded with diamente. Her shoulder spray was of pink carnations. Her sister wore powder blue with a spray of cream roses."

C: What spray do you like to wear Penny, when you're out on the town.

P: I always wear a spray Christina.

C: I thought you did. It's your signature look.

P: Brown dahlias.

C: Excellent. Not tawny.

P: "Miss Nonie McCarthy's tailored linen frock was string colored."

N: What?

P: I guess she didn't want to pull attention from the her older sisters.

N: A lovely beige.

C: She was matching the dahlias.

N: What's string coloured?!

P: It's like sad beige clothes for sad beige children.

C: It's like a bad cream.

N: But who says, 'what colour's your dress'. 'Well it's string.' That's such a weird way to describe it.

C: Pasta would be better

P: Pasta! It was pasta coloured. They wouldn't have had pasta.

N: Oh no. No, no. Nonie didn't like pasta. She also didn't like rice.

C: Wheat-germ.

N: When she started getting Meals-on-Wheels she'd eat around the rice. She wasn't keen on the rice.

C: Not a rice eater.

N: No.

P: That' excellent. The article continues.

"They were assisted in entertaining by their aunt, Mrs Salmon, of Melbourne, who wore a frock of loyal blue with smart blue ornaments,"

And I checked, that is not meant to be royal blue, it is loyal blue, which is a different colour.

C: Right.

P: It's a darker blue.

N: Did you say Mrs Salmon?

P: Yes, Mrs Salmon?

N: I feel like she missed a trick there. She could dressed in a pink dress.

P: "and whose playing and singing were much enjoyed, and by Mrs George Swatske, of Randwick, who chose a dress of black crepe with a spray of flowers. On Saturday evening about 30 younger friends gathered to offer their congratulations, when dancing, games and competitions entertained the guests."

C: Things got fucked up.

P: There were sprays everywhere.

C: Everyone got lit.

P: "Among the numerous and lovely gifts received by the guests of honor were a cheque to each from their father.”

Which was frankly, the least he could do. Now I've got a photo of the lovely ladies Pat and Joan.

N: Oh, that's exciting.

P: But you know, it's a newspaper photo so it's not very good.

C: I can't see a lot of detail, but I can see the outline of their hair.

P: I can't see the sprays.

N: Yeah, no sprays.

P: That's what's disappointing me.

C: I feel like the one on the right I could see a spray.

P: It looks like a broach.

C: It is spray-ish.

N: It's broach-styley. It's pinned to your dress and then you've got sticks of flowers coming off.

P: Okay.

C: Like a strange corsage.

P: That's might be it. That was their 21st. That was obviously a very big event. The other thing that they were always doing was going to the races. They seem to.

N: Well they had to.

P: Did Nonie like it?

N: I don't remember. They may not have ever mentioned it to us. But they, I assume they had a life outside the times that we went to visit them on school holidays.

C: Probably.

N: Probably.

P: So they never talked about racing. They didn't seem to continue that interest.

N: No. And they never took us to the racing either I don't think.

P: Maybe it was just an Albury thing.

N: Maybe.

P: And Nonie in particular, at some point, for some reason, donated a gold whip as a prize for one of these races so there's several articles that say about her presenting the gold whip, or thank-you for the gold whip Nonie.

N: Did she have it made?

P: I don't know how closely

N: Was she the presenter of it?

C: She spray-painted it gold.

P: It was made out of pasta and she

C: Stuck together.

N: The only good use for pasta according to Nonie.

C: All penne all along the handle.

P: So the races is a social even, obviously. All the social events in Albury were often covered by a journalist under the pseudonym, or just the one name of 'Constance'. And she went, she seemed to go to absolutely everything and write down in great detail what everyone was wearing and who was there and what was happening.

C: And what colour spray they had.

P: Exactly. And the Border Morning Mail is actually the paper that Barrie Cassidy started on. So it's got a prestigious. So I don't know if he knew Constance. Cos I don't know. The records in Trove only go up to the 50s. I don't know if she would have kept going when Barrie was there and if he could get in touch and let us know, that would be great. Cos I wasn't able to find out who Constance really was and when she retired. I'm pretty sure she was just one person because ever so often the social page would be written by someone else. Sometimes there was a Penelope or a Frou-Frou. Was one of the names.

C: Frou-Frou. She was was a bit rogue.

21:45 P: And you know, maybe she wasn't even a woman. So this is an example of one of her articles about the races.

“BRILLIANT DAY FOR GOLD CUP

Newest and Smartest Apparel Worn

(By "Contance")

The Albury Racing Club was once again favored with a lovely day for its most important fixture, the Gold Cup, and the opportunity was taken by women visitors to wear their smartest and newest apparel and some very unusual notes appeared."

Which I think is a sledge.

C: Yes.

P: It was an "unusual" outfit.

C: They were new but they weren't nailing it.

P: "Though cut on simple lines for practical wear, these surprising notes saved uniformity and there was a definite color change. Gone are the dusty pinks so long in vogue and their place is taken by warm browns,"

N: Not brown again.

P: rusty reds, amber yellows and checks in all sizes and colors. Skirts still show a flare and are fairly short, but give a slim line."

I'm just education you now.

C: Yeah thanks.

P: It's not really about Pat and Nonie, it's about fashion.

"Jackets button high and a new touch is velvet trimmings, yokes on frocks, pockets end even buttons of velvet. But black remains first favorite, and much was worn, frequently its somberness being relieved with color. Hat crowns soared slightly upwards and many gay feathers, some of felt.

Miss Nonie McCarthy wore a blue suit with accessories to match. Her sister, Miss Patty McCarthy, chose a brown serge costume.”

Which sounds a bit grim.

N: Nonie did like blue. She wore quite a bit of blue. But it was more like, tracksuits.

P: Right did Pat and Nonie seem interested in fashion when you knew them?

N: Well, Pat always wore lipstick, red lipstick.

P: Okay. Was that good?

N: It could be hit and miss. Depends on if she was looking in the mirror when she. But lots of slacks I remember. Cos we only really spent time with them, I didn't see them in their workwear or anything. I saw them on holidays so, it was a lot of, matching tracksuits, which I do appreciate. And like, the sort of like parachutey material that was very big in the '80s. Oh they were huge on those!

C: So you could hear them coming. (makes sound effect)

N: Yep, delightful.

P: Because Nonie actually, there was another thing I found where she was actually a model in a fashion show.

N: Yeah. Well they were very tall.

P: Yes.

N: Especially for the time.

P: Well, you are a tall family.

N: Yes we are.

C: And you've got a calendar coming out at the end of the year, don't you?

N: I do. It's about Pat and Nonie today. But yes I do.

C: You're off to the Maldives soon.

N: But yeah, they were like 5"10, 5"11.

P: Oh okay. And Joan was a bit shorter I think. In the photo.

N: Yeah, I'm not 100% sure.

P: Pat might have been standing on a box though.

N: She might have been like I'm the number 1 twin, I get the step stool.

24:56 P: And Nonie also once got vox popped for her racing opinion. So this is

Border Morning Mail Thursday 22 January 1948. And it's the “THE MAN IN THE STEEET'S OPINION OF" and it's Miss Nonie McCarthy because she's a man on the street for the purpose of this.

"Court House. Hotel, Kiewa street, Albury: Personally, it is immaterial to me on which day local racing is conducted as I can and do attend on either day;"

C: I have a lot of time available.

P: "however, for the sake of my friends who are not so fortunately placed I would prefer racing on Saturdays.”

So at that time she was into the racing but there is a photo of her with this vox pop. I think there is a bit of a family resemblance there.

N: I mean, what is happening?

P: I mean, her face is very whited out.

N: Yes, that's true.

P: But I feel like I can see it. Do you see it?

N: Yeah.

P: I mean, I'm not saying that's you at your best.

N: Yeah no, yeah. I probably can see it if I think about it, yeah.

P: She just has black lines for eyes and

C: Bit like you

P: And no nose. And so then there were other events like there were dances, and Nonie was often organising them. And it did seem, like Pat was sometimes involved in some of them and did go along, but it did seem to me that maybe Nonie was the more social one.

N: Also she's the more organised one.

P: Right.

N: She ran their lives.

26:36 P: The other thing that they had a lot of in Albury was Spinster's Balls.

N: They would have been at all of those, the poor buggers.

P: Well the thing is though that the word spinster didn't seem to have any negative connotations.

C: Maybe it was the lead in to the B&S Balls.

N: Well, maybe.

P: Yeah, like it was just the Spinsters' Balls, like there'd be like these ads in the paper they'd be like '50 spinsters are organising this ball'.

C: Round up your spinsters.

P: And you can buy these tickets.

N: Tickets to go mingle with desperate ladies.

P: Well, yeah. But it was just all the single ladies. That's what it was, and then Constance would come along and she'd write about all

C: Who was the hottest single lady.

P: And she'd write about all the decorations and.

C: Did they have men there?

P: Oh yeah, the men would come.

C: They would flock, wouldn't they?

P: They'd have 300 people.

N: So it was bachelors and spinsters but they just didn't advertise that it was bachelors.

C: It was a meat market basically.

N: Here's a bunch of ladies, bring your men to have a look at them.

P: It was super classy and like, and like there'd be 3 to 600 people there. I found this one article it had like descriptions of the decorations;

"Decorations, which were on a lavish scale, which were all the work of Mr Tim Walton. Designs of top hats, dice, playing cards, half-moons, tall champagne glasses with realistic bubbles, huge masks, banjos and guitars, and animal trains, all in the gayest colors, were arranged on the walls."

C: I don't think he had a theme.

N: He started on gambling and then went child's

P: But what's really funny is that that one's in, I think it was just after the war so 1945 and then I found events in subsequent years and it's like the same decorations.

C: It was a good year, so we'll put them away in storage.

P: Dice, top hats and champagne glasses were stuck to the walls. Get them out of storage. And there was also a band at that event ant they played a song that was called 'You Ought to See Sally on Sunday'. Which, have you heard of that song?

C: No.

N: No.

P: And I listened to it and I thought it was gonna be about Sally looking really rough cos. But it's actually the opposite, she dresses up on Sunday.

N: Yeah cos,

C: She's a slob the rest of the week.

P: The reason I was reading that, Nonie was at that event, and I think she organised it and she wore a "prune long-waisted frock".

C: Prune!

N: Prune! Call it purple!

P: So she didn't always hit it out of the park.

C: It's high fibre though.

N: It's purple!

P: She might have looked really good.

N: Constance has it out for Nonie. The first one's string and the second one prune.

C: She felt threatened.

N: They are off-white and purple.

C: Next one's wheat-germ.

N: 'She wore a vomit-green dress.'

29:37 P: One of the most exciting things that happened, I think, to the sisters is that in 1950 there were some articles and this one is called, from the 10th of April 1950, “ALBURY GIRLS' EUROPEAN TOUR".

C: This has the potential to take a strange turn.

P: And this was, unfortunately Pat didn't get to go. It was Nonie and Joan. And I'm fascinated to know why Pat stayed home.

C: Dead weight.

N: Because I thought that Pat was the traveller. I think Pat went to Egypt.

P: Well Pat might have been getting revenge. That might have been revenge travel from being left at home. Maybe someone had to stay home.

N: Probably.

P: With dickhead dad. I think at this time in 1950 travel must have been relatively rare, well it was, because they actually had their letter to their dad published in the paper.

C: Oh my goodness.

P: It was that exciting.

"In a letter to their father, Mr J. J. McCarthy, of the Court House Hotel, Albury, and sister, Miss Pat McCarthy, the Misses Joan and Nonie McCarthy, who have been travelling abroad during the past three months, write that on landing in England they met Mr and Mrs Ken More (formerly of the Commonwealth Bank, Albury) in London."

This is absolutely typical of Australians, you just go overseas and hang out with other Australians.

N: But they probably would have needed to be chaperoned.

C: Yeah.

P: Yeah. Travelling by themselves.

N: Yeah, they would have needed to have a man to mind them and make sure they didn't get into any trouble. J. J. wouldn't have allowed it probably otherwise.

P: Yeah. Being so upstanding and moral himself.

N: That's right.

"During a tour of France later, the Misses McCarthy renewed acquaintance with Mr "Doc" Edwards, formerly of the Town Hall Hotel, Albury, at Amiens. Mr Edwards was expecting to re-open his estaminet this month."

I'd never heard the word estaminet. I don't know if I'm saying it right. It's a cafe selling alcoholic drinks.

C: Sounds like a good plan.

P: A bar.

"They toured the south of France and after a stay in Paris left for Rome on March 26. Three days later they had an audience with the Pope"

N: What?!

P: "at St Peter's in the Vatican City.”

Did you ever hear about that?

N: No. I can't believe

C: I think they made that up.

P: Yeah, I know, 'And we met the Pope.'

C: 'And we went to Euro Disney even though it hadn't opened.'

N: So wait, did they actually meet him or were that at one of those things where they were in front of him?

P: What's an audience? I don't know. Does anyone know what an audience

N: I don't know.

C: They had a little skit that they performed and he said, 'Well Done'.

N: Was it John Paul the second at that time?

P: No. No, no.

N: I don't know anything about popes.

P: I shoulda looked that up. I don't know who even was the pope then.

N: You know they used to take us to church on Sunday when we used to stay with them occasionally. God it was dull.

P: I didn't know that. Because I just always think of you.

N: I was raised with no religion. Apart from occasional

C: I can tell Nerida

P: Cos I don't think of you as a Catholic at all, but you do have this quite strong

N: No, but it didn't stick. It was very dull. And it was one of those modern Catholic churches. She might have won me over had she taken me to one of those big ones where they speak in Latin and stuff.

C: Was there a lot of clapping?

N: I can't remember. I just remember being extremely bored and being like 'I could be at the beach right now'.

P: It is dull.

N: Stupid church!

P: And it's the same thing every week.

N: No, when Pat died she had, is it the rosary where they repeat 'Hail Mary Mother of God'. And they repeat it like 500 times and you've just gotta sit through it.

P: Yes. I've never actually been to one. I've heard of them. Cos my family, cos various members of my family were quite Catholic and so when I was younger and someone died they would, they'd say 'We're going off to do the rosary' but I never went.

N: Never go Penny.

P: I think the ship's sailed now.

T: I hate to interupt

P: No, go tell us.

T: But it was the Nazi pope.

N: Well, that's nothing to brag about!

T: A bit too concilliatory to the Nazis. This is the pope, you know that thing about papal infallibility? That, he was the guy who invoked that.

N: He's the guy who was like 'I might be a Nazi but I am Perfect'.

T: The main thing on Wikipedia is 'controversial for his reaction to the Holocaust`.

P: You never want to be controversial for your reaction to the Holocaust.

C: No, just stay in the lane.

P: There is one right answer.

N: So what's his name?

T: That was Pius XXII.

N: They shouldn't have written home about him.

P: I don't think he was actually a good guy. Not that many of them were really.

N: That's true.

34:26 P: So there's not just one article about their European tour. No, no. From the 19th of April 1950

“ALBURY GIRLS ENJOYING EUROPEAN TOUR"

C: Albury Girls Gone Wild.

P: "The Misses Joan and Nonie McCarthy, Albury, who were granted an audience with the Pope at Rome recently, have continued on their tour of Europe and, according to their impressions, Venice is among the beauty spots of the world."

P: I mean you heard it here first.

C: Noone knew before Joan and Nonie's tour.

N: People were just like Venice (makes sick noice) and then they went there and they were like 'Actually it's quite pretty'.

P: They ruined it. They spoiled Venice.

""In a letter to their father, Mr J. McCarthy, of the Court House Hotel, they tell of the wonders of this Italian city which has been built among 100 islands. Launches ply from one point to another and gondoliers still ply their tranquil trade of ferrying people from place to place. Not only have the many islands been used as the foundations for this unique city but 400 bridges join the various islands and the Misses McCarthy crossed six on their way to and from the hotel where they stayed."

C: Were they taking notes so that they remembered that?

P: I think so.

N: I mean, it is peak Dad content though. Dads love a bit of geography.

P: I reckon this is him very much showing off as well, like 'I've sent my daughters overseas and they're doing all this stuff'.

C: But I think travelling would have been really exausting then because you had to write these ridiculously long-winded letters back home. Now you just take some photos, put it on social media and Mum and Dad have seen it and they're fine.

P: Exactly. And obviously send out a few press releasese.

C: And have an audience with the pope.

P: "It was at Venice that the two Albury girls saw Italian lace being made by Italian children whose ages ranged from eight to 12 years."

C: That would have been the pasta coloured lace, wouldn't it? From Italy.

N: You know, they did love a doily.

C: Everything looks better on a doily.

P: "From Venice they went on a tour to the Isle of Capri where, they said, the romance and beauty which had been woven about the island was understating the beauty of the place."

So they liked that one too.

"Intrigued by the 'Monster of Italy', Mt Vesuvius, they decided to visit the belching crater, but because the lift was out of order they had to make a long tiring climb."

C: I would not make a long tiring climb to see a belching crater.

P: Have you been, Christina? You've been, you're well travelled. Have you been to Vesuvius.

C: No.

P: Have you been to Venice?

C: I've been to Venice.

P: Was it any good?

C: I like Venice but Mum and I got very lost in Venice and had a big argument. So that's more what I think about when I think of Venice. That we had no idea where we were and almost missed our connecting bus.

P: "Once at the crater they said the climb was well worth the trouble for a panorama of beauty spread out before them. However, the volcano was temporarily quiescent and only emitted occasional smoke."

N: Would you be keen on visiting a volcano that may go off.

P: I've done it.

N: Have you?

P: Yeah. In Indonesia.

N: Did you?

P: Yeah, yeah. You had to get up at like 2'o'clock in the morning and get on this bus and you'd go out and you watch sunrise and there's these two volcanoes next to each other and they both puff at regular intevals and it's beautiful and then you go and you climb up the side of one of them.

C: Was it hot?

P: It was freezing actually, in the middle of the night. And then when you go up the volcano, it does get hot when the sun comes out.

N: Were you concerned about burning to a crisp in volcanic.

P: Yeah. Like I was scared but I wanted to do it and then I was relieved when it was over. But the reality is you can, you know, earthquakes, volcanoes in Indonesia, like it can happen. Doesn't matter where you are.

N: I guess. But you don't need to walk up to it.

C: There's a tiger I might approach and poke it.

P: 'It can happen anywhere'.

"They stayed at Sorrento as they did not like the famed city of Naples and left on April 10 to stay at the Diana Hotel, Lugano, Switzerland. The town is built beside a charming lake surrounded by hills covered with snow which attracts many tourists during the European holiday periods. The girls say that the spot, is heavenly and their language troubles are overcome because most of the people speak English fluently.

C: The ideal destination.

P: So did they speak any other languages?

N: Not to me. Unsure.

P: Doesn't sound like it.

"Gracie Fields has built a cafe next to her home at Sorrento."

N: So basically they liked everywhere except for Naples. Naples was shit.

P: Yeah, basically.

"A point of interest revealed by the girl tourists is that all shops and hotels in Europe are open on Saturdays and Sundays.”

N: I mean that would have been thrilling. Thrilling.

P: But it would have been. Because it is, in the country, because we grew up in the country it is dead.

N: They were closed at 12 on a Saturday when we were growing up. Not at all on a Sunday.

P: And then there's nothing until Monday. So that's the end of that but then Nonie got back and we've got one more article about this.

C: Nonie, let it go.

40:13 P: This is from the 2nd of June 1950

“Miss Noni McCarthy, of Albury, who returned recently from a trip abroad, is of the opinion that Australia can compare favorably with other parts of the world."

N: What is this jingoistic nonsense.

P: "She is glad to be home again. She recalls with pleasure, meeting Lady Macgeoch, who was formerly Miss Bita Kiddle, of Walbundrie. When seen by Miss McCarthy, Lady Macgeoch was living with her husband at the National Serviceman's Club, London. Her husband is Chief Judge Advocate."

I mean, I guess it's just showing off that you met.

N: Chief Judge Advocate is possibly like a Chief Justice.

P: Oh right. I mean she's a lady.

N: That's pretty high up.

P: She's a lady now, which is very good for someone who started off as called Bita Kiddle of Walbundrie.

"Miss McCarthy visited Ireland, Scotland and most of the interesting parts of England.”

I don't know if she went to any of the shit bits. Doesn't say.

N: I'd be interested to know what she left out.

C: She didn't go to Essex.

P: But as far as you knew Pat was the one who then travelled.

N: Yes.

P: Cos it sounds like Nonie did it and was like 'Yeah, it was okay'.

N: 'Australia's just fine compared to the rest of it'. Yeah no, cos I think that Pat went to, she might have gone possibly to China? But definitely to Egypt. Yeah no, I was always under the impression that Pat was the traveller. I might be remembering wrong.

P: But also like that that's actually perfectly possible and consistent.

N: That Nonie was one and done and Pat went a few times.

P: But they didn't travel together.

N: I don't think so. But then who, Pat would have had to travel with someone. I'll have to ask my mum.

P: Yeah. So and then, we've unfortunately only got the Border Morning Mail until 1951 and so I sort of don't. Yeah so, I reckon their dad was a real handbrake on their lives, obviously.

N: Yes, very Catholic family and they all had sort of suitors at the same time and the suitors weren't Catholic.

C: Controversial.

N: So they all went to J.J. and said 'I'd like to marry your daughter' and he was like 'Piss off' to all 3 of them. And my Grandpa was like 'yeah, well, I'll see you at the wedding'. And the other two

P: Pissed off. Or did the girls say no?

N: Pat's boyfriend pissed off. Nonie's boyfriend was a guy named Bill and I remember him from when I was a child. He was still her friend, boyfriend, he would come and visit but they never married even after J.J. died.

C: Aw, poor Bill.

N: I know, Bill loved Nonie his whole life and they never got together. But he used to come and stay and I think she looked after him when, when he was dying as well. He was such a powerful force in their life that even after he was dead, she didn't marry him. Cos he'd said no in the first place.

C: That's terrible.

N: Yeah.

C: Bloody J.J.

P: So we're not. He's not gonna be the hero of the pod, I don't think

N: No. Nonie for sure is the hero.

P: But then they obviously had quite a different life after they finally got away from their dad.

N: They built a house in the 50s in Beaumaris. Like, on an empty block in Beaumaris. But they probably, but I wouldn't have thought they would leave their dad behind, so I could be wrong about that. Maybe they built it when he died. But like, would you think that Beaumaris would be empty blocks of land in the '64.

C: No, I was gonna say, I thought it was fairly well populated.

N: Like there were photos of just like fields when they built it.

C: You wouldn't find one now.

N: No. That place sold for, like when it was sold for a lot and then they just demolished that house.

C: That's disappointing.

P: Their house, I remember visiting, I think it was after Nonie's funeral and their house was immaculate. It was beautiful. It was like, it was really vintage stuff but all beautiful, like not old smelly stuff.

N: That's what happens

P: Really well kept

N: When a couple of women that don't have children. Or cats.

P: It was in pretty good nick. And when did Joan die?

N: She died when my mum was 20. So she died in '74? Or '76. I can't remember how hold my mum is. Wait, how old is Oprah? It's the same age.

C: I like that you assume everyone will know that off the top of their head.

N: It's a Googlable question.

P: I remember Oprah having her 50th birthday.

N: Yeah, that's awhile ago now.

C: Didn't she give away a lot of stuff?

N: I think it's '54.

P: Yes.

N: Nailed it! So she, would have been '74.

P: Was Nonie a role-model for you? Were they in any way role models or were they like cautionary tales or were they something in between?

N: I mean, Nonie was my grandma.

P: Yeah.

N: I had a grandma on my dad's side who was a bit rubbish. I didn't really like her. And Nonie was very nurturing.

P: And what was, and so her partner Bill. Did you meet him as well? He was still around.

N: Yep.

P: And what was he like?

N: He was very nice. He was a very gentle man. Old man. He was probably not even that old, you know.

P: So were they a couple and we just called them her friend.

N: No. He would stay at their place occasionally but always in a separate room. Because I think that Pat reinforced

C: Maybe there were some creepings in the middle of the night.

N: I don't think so. Because they were really Catholic. I think that he was just her friend who she was in love with and nothing ever happened.

C: Oh that's horrific.

P: I mean it is a cautionary tale in the sense of like.

N: Well, don't listen to your dad

P: Don't listen to your dad. this is what happens when we're, you know, we don't let people do what they want.

C: Follow your heart people.

N: But Nonie would have still had to go through life with Pat attached to her, I would say. Even if she did marry Bill. Someone had to take care of Pat.

P: Ah, and she looked after Pat a bit too.

N: Yes yes. Oh yes.

P: When they got older?

N: Yes. Pat would not have survived without Nonie. This was when they were quite old and they always went to Prahan Market and they had, Nonie had her specific people and they'd always call her 'Miss Nonie' and she'd get her beef from the beef-guy and yeah, very specific people that she would visit. So she left Pat in the car because.

C: I hope it wasn't a hot day.

P: She cracked the window.

N: She cracked the window. But had a turn when she was at the market. And one of her friendly vendors called an ambulance for her. So she went to the hospital and was like 'I've left Pat in the car'. And was calling home. They didn't have mobiles. She was calling home to see if Pat was there and wasn't getting any answer. So was very concerned, spent the night overnight in the hospital and then got home and Pat's like 'Where were you?' and Nonie's like 'Where were you? And why didn't you answer the phone?' And it was never her job to answer the phone.

C: So she just let it ring out.

N: And the car was still at Prahan Market. So nobody knows how Pat got home.

C: Least of all Pat.

N: Pat can't remember. Has no idea. So I always just assumed that she walked up to someone and went 'Take me home' and they were like 'Alright, this old lady needs to go home, so I better take her home.'

P: My goodness.

C: Was it within walking distance?

N: No, no she had to be driven.

C: Well no, they were in Beaumaris, weren't they?

N: Yeah. It was always a mystery.

P: It does seem like they had a pretty good time in Albury, I think, hopefully, even though their father wasn't that nice. I think they found their own interests and stuff that they were able to do.

N: Wearing unusual coloured outfits.

P: Yeah exactly. And then they eventually got away, which is great.

N: Yeah. And had jobs, and had friends and went to church a lot. Well thank you that was very interesting.

P: No thank you for coming Nerida.

C: Thanks for coming Nerida.

N: It was good.

P: It's nice to have a proper librarian.

(Piano music)

P: And was well and popularily known. I can't say popularily! Okay and was well and popularily known. This is going to be a problem.

N: She was well and very popular. And then she was also known as this.