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00:10 This podcast was recorded at State Library Victoria on Aboriginal land, the land of the Wurunjeri people of the Kulin Nations. It discusses events that occurred on the lands of the Ngunnawal people. We pay our respects to their elders past and present.

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00:35 Penny: Welcome to In Those Days

Christina: Thanks Penny

PENNY: We're back in the podcast, I'm here with Christina Adams

CHRISTINA: And I'm with Penny Tangey

PENNY: And it's been a long time since we've done this

CHRISTINA: It has been a very long time

PENNY: But I feel like we've achieved, we've done a lot in that time.

CHRISTINA: Well you've had a small person enter the world

PENNY: Yeah, I had a baby, I finished my course I'm not qualified to be a librarian even though I'm not a librarian.

CHRISTINA: That's why we're at the State Library.

PENNY: That's right. And you Christina are now married.

CHRISTINA: That's right.

PENNY: And, an Assistant Principal. So, that's mostly the reason why we haven't done this for awhile.

CHRISTINA: Life's happening.

PENNY: Yeah. So today the thing that I want to talk about first before we get into having our guest is the newspapers in Trove, there tends to be more that are older. So after about the mid-1950s there's not as many records.

CHRISTINA: Ok.

PENNY: And that's for copyright reasons. Because most of those newspapers are still in copyright. But occasionally there's a newspaper that gives permission for their articles to be digitised. And one of those, which is gonna turn out to be very relevant for today is the Canberra Times. So you can get the Canberra Times up into the 1990s.

CHRISTINA: Good on the Canberra Times.

PENNY: And as we know most of the good stuff in life happens in Canberra. So,

CHRISTINA: And in the 1990s.

PENNY: So, let's get our guest.

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02:04

PENNY: Our guest today is Lincoln Turner. And Lincoln is, well he's my husband, I suppose,

CHRISTINA: Oh, is that how we know him.

PENNY: Yeah, that's how we know him. And he's also, for the first 3 pods that we did he helped us at home with the audio. He was very flexible in a yoga type way at getting really close but not in the way.

PENNY: So he'd be crawling around on the floor making sure the microphones were working. But now we're at the State Library Victoria.

CHRISTINA: Everyone has their own chair.

PENNY: Everyone has their own chair, their own microphone, it was all organised, it was all set up for us so

LINCOLN: And there are no small kids to be keeping out of the recording room.

PENNY: But it's very nice that you're still here

LINCOLN: Well, that's a lovely greeting thankyou.

PENNY: Even though we don't technically need your technical expertise anymore.

LINCOLN: It's much more relaxing not to be on tech duty.

PENNY: The first thing I wanted to ask Lincoln is how much have you used Trove?

LINCOLN: I think hardly at all. And I'm just trying to think, I think we had a little bit of Trove bender looking up things that had happened in our house during some ungodly heritage renovation nightmare.

CHRISTINA: You're not haunted as a house?

PENNY: Oh, we'd have to be.

CHRISTINA: I mean you always see people looking up their house when paranormal activity strikes.

PENNY: Yeah, and you think so, I mean our house was built in the 1870s. A lot of people would have died there.

CHRISTINA: Lots of poltergeists.

LINCOLN: A baby died and, in the 1890s and we found that in Trove.

CHRISTINA: I thought you were going to see 'And we found that baby in the ceiling'.

PENNY: But I mean, but I actually don't get a very spooky vibe off our house to be honest. But Lincoln, what I wanted to talk to you about today was someone called Eugene Milton Sanchez.

LINCOLN: My grandpa.

PENNY: Yes.

LINCOLN: Never Eugene.

PENNY: Normally, he was Milton.

LINCOLN: Yes, he was absolutely Milton. In fact usually he was 'Milton'. But

PENNY: Because he was being told off.

CHRISTINA: Did he not like the name Eugene?

LINCOLN: Well actually I don't know. He just certainly didn't go by Eugene ever in the family and I don't know if at other points in his career he was ever Eugene.

CHRISTINA: Maybe that was a generational thing because my grandfather was Robert George but he was only ever referred to as George.

LINCOLN: He was always Milton and it was usually 'Milton' as in 'Milton, get rid of that lemon'. And

PENNY: Because he used to suck on lemons didn't he.

LINCOLN: Yeah, he'd be given a gin and tonic and he'd drink the gin and tonic and then chew on the lemon and like

CHRISTINA: Let it go Milton

LINCOLN: Just like chew and chew on the lemon like he was getting every last bit of gin that had diffused the lemon.

PENNY: I think he liked the lemon.

L I think he liked the lemon.

PENNY: We're very lucky because Milton lived in Canberra.

CHRISTINA: Hence the Canberra Times links.

PENNY: There are actually quite a few articles related to him from the 60s and 70s. And the first thing, which is from 1968, and it's a profile piece on Milton and I think it's a really great thing to start with, because it like, because I met him obviously when he was an older man but he had very strong characteristics but this article really captures them all and it was in a section of the paper that was called Capital Letter and it was written by a journalist who was called Gang Gang, they tended to do kind of light hearted things about life in Canberra. I'll read this out.

05:39

And it's from the 14th of March 1968

"Mr Milton Sanchez, a tall, grey-haired, quietly-spoken American living in Canberra, was not naturalised yesterday."

So there must have been a big citizenship ceremony the day before.

"Until Australia changes its Constitution to his liking, it's unlikely that he ever will be. "Where is Australia's George Washington?" he demanded last night."

LINCOLN: Oh god.

CHRISTINA: You say it like it is Milton.

PENNY: So Milton was American?

LINCOLN: Oh yes, very much. And, and a very proud American.

CHRISTINA: Living in Canberra.

LINCOLN: Wouldn't go quite as far as to say My Country Right or Wrong American. But very, very much this is the way it should be done and what the hell are you doing here in Australia. As I think you've found here.

PENNY: Gonna get onto that.

"Mr Sanchez, of course, wishes to see us break free of what he terms "old-fashioned ideas". He wants us to remove the ceiling over our heads and to stand up straight."

LINCOLN: Don't be a slob.

PENNY: Is that what he used to say.

LINCOLN: Not prescriptively to kids. But somebody he didn't like.

PENNY: Weren't there some movie stars who he thought were slobs?

LINCOLN: Almost all of them. I mean, I don't know who, cause I'm really bad on mid-century movies. But certainly Rat Pack, Frank Sinatra, 'He was slob!'. If you'd said Grandpa, what about David Bowie he would have had no idea, you could have picked someone slightly more contemporary and it would have been post about 1968, tuned out. Maybe you could go back and find some absolute matinee idol from the 40s and 'Oh yes, he was good, he was good.' Lawrence Olivier or someone, 'Oh yes, he was okay.'

PENNY: Okay, he continues.

""I think Australia suffers from a dependent mentality", he said. "You'll stop leaning on to the British only because you'll hang on to the Americans. I want you to be yourselves, to be free, boy"."

LINCOLN: Boy!

PENNY: I'd forgotten about boy.

LINCOLN: That has a number of intersectional problems.

CHRISTINA: Just a few.

PENNY: And then it said:

"he said, with a Yankee gleam in his eye."

CHRISTINA: What is a Yankee gleam.

LINCOLN: Well he was apparently quite the looker.

PENNY: I guess so.

LINCOLN: Well, I mean you can't really judge from when he was 82.

PENNY: That's true.

LINCOLN: Oh no, apparently swept my grandmother off her feet. You know the dashing American army officer and, and off they went.

PENNY: Well, you know 20 years later we're getting to Alison.

"His wife Alison, whom he met and married in Australia in 1944, does not quite share all her husband's convictions."

CHRISTINA: Excellent.

PENNY: "She has retained her Australian nationality although they lived in America for some years. Her laconic interjections, with a slight American accent, only spurred Mr Sanchez on to expound on his theory. "I continue to be disappointed in Australia", said Mur Sanchez"

LINCOLN: Oh he continued.

PENNY: "without malice. "You're still pretty much an up-jumped self-governing colony".

CHRISTINA: Wow.

LINCOLN: Alison, my gran she very much was in favour of an Australian Republic and thought Australia should stand on its own two feet, maybe didn't need to fill the entire family dinner table conversation with that pressing need.

PENNY: And she might have tried to be a little less insulting as she expressed her views.

CHRISTINA: Not Milton.

PENNY: "Mr Sanchez, who works at the ANU Library, believes Australia hasn't made the progress she should have — materially and otherwise — because we are still "too damn British". ("He's basically a very jingoistic American", interjected his wife)."

CHRISTINA: Did that cause some tension perhaps when that article came out? Well, I wonder, I've never heard of this article. My mother, in particular, would have been quite pleased that they were covered, I would have thought.

PENNY: Well, she would have been about 18 though she would have been.

LINCOLN: Maybe she had other things to pay attention to, rather than Gang Gang.

PENNY: Maybe in her early 20s.

LINCOLN: 68. 20.

PENNY: Yeah, she would have been 20.

"Mr Sanchez said he couldn't ex-change his present citizenship for ours because he would lose his freedom of action as an American. "For instance, I could become the President of the United States, but as it is now, I could never become President of Australia. Australians won't face up to the fact that the Number One job is denied them".

Although Mr Sanchez is a fervent believer in the virtues of American democracy, he is also a great admirer of General Franco"

LINCOLN: Oh God!

CHRISTINA: Oh wow. Oh wow that took a turn.

LINCOLN: Well this must have been, maybe post 1983, I think, '75 when Spain got rid of Franco, maybe Milton might have backtracked on that view or at least sublimated it because I never heard that one. Wow. Okay.

PENNY: What about other kind of authoritarian regimes or tendencies?

LINCOLN: What an interesting question. I don't remember any discussion about Franco being 'Not too bad', but then Franco was finished before I was born. But I think I have some vague recollection of some conversation must have been late'80s about Pinochet, and probably Milton going 'Well at least he cleaned it up' or something, something along those lines.

CHRISTINA: Well he wasn't a slob.

LINCOLN: Oh no, no. Franco and Pinochet were not slobs. And I'm sure if he said pro-Pinochet my Grandmother 'Milton!'

PENNY: Yeah, 'cause Alison was really very progressive.

LINCOLN: Alison was very left. And she was certainly left of usual Grandmother. And I remember when Keating lost the '96 election she didn't just re-join the ALF, which a few people did at that point when Howard came in, but she signed everybody in the family, including me and my sister up to the ALP. Didn't ask first, just signed us all up. And we got the the Young Labor newsletter.

CHRISTINA: How scintillating.

LINCOLN: At that time I was interested in politics. And I was probably ALP rather than anything else, but certainly she was always keen to talk about politics. She genuinely believed in fairness, she was a feminist, she was an early environmentalist as well. And you know, she, I got a lot of my politics from Gran. Not so much from Milton.

CHRISTINA: Milton was in the background sucking lemons.

PENNY: Not a bad description of him.

LINCOLN: Pretty much.

PENNY: Oh, poor Milton. I thought that was pretty much the only article in Trove until I had the bright idea of searching for his full name, Eugene Milton Sanchez. So I actually just looked for Eugene Sanchez and then I found that he was a prolific writer of letters to the editor.

CHRISTINA: Excellent.

LINCOLN: Oh wow.

PENNY: And honestly, there are dozens of them as well as some responses, some of which get quite heated. And don't worry we are not going to read them all because that, they are quite repetitive. He does tend to

CHRISTINA: He's got a theme.

PENNY: He has a theme. He hits the same notes.

LINCOLN: Can I take a guess of themes?

PENNY: Yeah, go.

LINCOLN: The one we've covered, which is Republicanism in Australia.

PENNY: Yeah, that's the main one.

LINCOLN: And the only other one that I can think of that regularly came up at family dinners was the war debts.

PENNY: Whether other countries did as much as the US in the war was a big thing for him. Okay this is a letter that was published on May 7th 1969.

14:25

"As an American living in Australia I continue to be amazed that this country (I refuse to consider it a nation)"

CHRISTINA: Coming in strong.

PENNY: "Is taking such an extremely long time to grow up. Isn't this the result of a dependency mentality — after leaning on Britain for so long, you now lean on the US. "Bludging" is another term for it, and why not when people refuse to stand up straight and pull their weight; infrequently I find Australians who are realistic enough to admit it."

You can imagine how much Australians like hearing this from Milton.

LINCOLN: It was a BBQ stopper I'm sure.

PENNY: "Neither in Vietnam nor Korea did this country contribute proportionately as much as the US, and in both World Wars participation was flawed by the controversy over conscription. Personally, I remember very well my surprise on learning that I could be sent here or anywhere else during World War II, but that no Australian conscript, even by the end of the war, could be required to serve north of the equator, nor east of the 159th meridian, nor west of the 110th meridian."

Which I didn't know about. I mean obviously the permanent wing of the army, they served everyone, but the wing that had the conscripts, at first they were only allowed to fight in Australia or Territories, Papual and New Gunieau, but then after 1943 they were allowed to go to a broader area but not all over the world. Because conscription was so controversial that it was like you can only be conscripted if you're directly assisting Australia.

LINCOLN: I wonder if there was a bit of projection going on here. Because I don't know a huge amount about Milton's world service. Milton ended up at the end of the war as a major in the US Army. But I don't think he ever got close to the business end of World War II. He was in the Transport Corp. So I think he flew a desk in WWII and did a lot of logistics and paperwork.

PENNY: Very important.

CHRISTINA: Yes.

LINCOLN: Which obviously has to be done.

PENNY: But he was a young man.

LINCOLN: Yeah, maybe they realised that Milton was not the sort of character you wanted in your platoon.

CHRISTINA: Maybe not.

LINCOLN: and he might be better given a typewriter.

PENNY: Yeah, that's interesting.

LINCOLN: I might be being very unfair. There may have been a deployment where Milton saw some action.

CHRISTINA: I feel he may have chosen to refer to that if he'd seen the action.

PENNY: That's true.

LINCOLN: Knowing Milton I would have thought that if he'd been anywhere remotely spicy we would have heard, very unlike my other grandfather who was dropped in behind the lines before D-day in some glider parachute arrangement and it was so traumatic he never spoke about it. Ever again.

CHRISTINA: He sucked lemons for a different reason.

LINCOLN: There are different responses here but I think Milton beating up on Australia for not getting in there enough is pretty interesting.

PENNY: He continues,

CHRISTINA: I'm sure he does.

PENNY: "Call this place a nation! Why are all those British flaps still flying?"

I think may that's meant to be flags.

CHRISTINA: Yeah, bloody flaps.

PENNY: Fix that one up later.

"I thought this was supposed to be Australia, not Britain. What about military awards and decorations? Not one is Australian. Maybe that is consistent, though, with having Australia's forces fighting for the British Queen who, although head of State here, too, is represented by governors who fly her British flag at their residences. Isn't this representing the British head of State, not the Australian? And why not have an Australian as head of State (not just a substitute, which is what the Governor-General is)?"

I'm really struggling with all these rhetorical questions.

CHRISTINA: There's a lot of rhetorical questions.

PENNY: "Or aren't Australians good enough? I think they are, but that they don't think so."

CHRISTINA: He loves to answer his own rhetorical questions. He doesn't seem to have mastered the notion of a rhetorical question.

PENNY: Maybe Australians don't think they're good enough because you keep negging them Milton.

"And how about the clause in the Constitution which allows the Queen to veto legislation even after the Governor-General has assented to it for her? What kind of self-determination does this indicate? If the clause would never be invoked then it doesn't belong in the Constitution.

The sooner this country evidences some pride, becomes a republic and commences to hold its head high, the sooner it will become a nation. And for any-one who cares to say "Yankee Go Home""

And there were a few.

"My answer is that I'll leave when I'm good and ready.

EUGENE M. SANCHEZ Garran."

CHRISTINA: Do you think Eugene became his pen-name.

PENNY: Basically, maybe he.

LINCOLN: It sounds like, the name under which

PENNY: He published all the letters under Eugene.

CHRISTINA: So he wasn't easily found in the phone book.

LINCOLN: It's funny isn't it? His republicanism was ahead of its time. It's been a mainstream view for a long time now but I think in 1969 I think much less so. I actually agree with all the things he says.

PENNY: It's just the way he says it.

CHRISTINA: He's not sugar coating it.

LINCOLN: And in one sense actually the Letters to the Editor page, it's what it's for, it's for people to write in and put these views. The problem in family life was that Milton would expound in exactly the same series of loudly put rhetorical questions, leaning back at the formal family dinner table down at. And we'd go down there and maybe a Thanksgiving dinner and Milton would say grace and some turkey would come out. Robustly adopting the traditions of Australia here. And then a beat would pass and someone might say something positive. 'It was good to see the government doing something'. Because my parents were interested in politics. and Milton would say 'I'll tell you what it would be good to see. I'm not going to say anything good until we see' and then

CHRISTINA: Was he several gins deep by this point?

LINCOLN: Yes he'd probably had a whiskey and a gin and tonic.

PENNY: But I don't think it was just when he go

CHRISTINA: He's fire up after a cup of tea.

L It wouldn't have mattered.

PENNY: It was just certain trigger words and he'd be off.

LINCOLN: Absolutely nothing to do with the alcohol. Even though there was the alcohol consumption, and he was incrediably skinny and so on, but I think it had nothing to do with the booze.

PENNY: And usually he'd be talking to people who agreed with him. Everyone at the table was also Republican.

LINCOLN: But they'd just agreed with him 3 weeks previous.

PENNY: He's not convincing anyone.

LINCOLN: The problem then was, Alison would go 'Milton!' And he'd go, 'Well I, I'm going to say what I'm going to say'. And then my mother would usually then go 'Dad'. But this only encouraged him. He'd go, 'It needs to be said. The children need to hear this. And of course the children,

CHRISTINA: I've got a press conference at 2.

LINCOLN: I don't remember egging him on, because it was entertaining, I think I probably did once or twice. I don't have a distinct recollection of what we did with this, whether you agreed, disagreed or just tried to make it through to desert. Gran's deserts, she did excellent pumpkin and pecan pie. Fantastic. So I think the strategy was probably just to try to stay under the radar. Ride it out, so that everyone would get through the meal. I fear that my father, while also firmly republican, Australian republican in his views

PENNY: Did he argue with Milton?

LINCOLN: I suspect so.

CHRISTINA: Oh yes.

LINCOLN: I suspect on the war debts he probably would

PENNY: Oh because he was British.

LINCOLN: My dad was born in England.

PENNY: He's still got a British passport.

LINCOLN: He became a naturalized Australian citizen as well.

PENNY: He's Australian now.

CHRISTINA: He didn't have the same concerns about the ceremony that Milton had.

PENNY: But Milton never became Australian?

LINCOLN: Absolutely not.

PENNY: I couldn't imagine.

LINCOLN: Milton kept his American passport.

PENNY: Anyway, after this letter. This is the first one that I found that was published. There were a few responses. The paper actually printed 4 responses to Milton.

LINCOLN: Touched a nerve.

PENNY: Of people who were quite cross at him. And they kept publishing, sometimes a letter a month, sometimes even more from Milton, for the next 3 or 4 years. So I think

CHRISTINA: Was he on the payroll?

PENNY: Well, I think he annoyed people, but they were reading and the paper probably, he was doing quite a good job for them.

LINCOLN: Clickbait circa 1968.

PENNY: There was one person who wrote a letter in support, often there'd be someone supporting MIlton as well and this person was Kim Beazley Senior, who was a member of, 1969, so he was in the opposition but yeah, he said Eugene is on the money, Australia is servile, and we should change.

LINCOLN: Fantastic.

PENNY: Now, the next letter I wanted to share with you is that, as we know, Milton was always looking for a way to bring up the republic. And look, I get it, I'm constantly on Twitter trying to mention climate change at every possible opportunity.

CHRISTINA: Every opportunity.

PENNY: And sometimes it's a bit of a long bow. And so this is one of Milton's letters published under the heading 'Mother's Boys.' And it's from the 20th January 1971.

24:35

"Sir, The recent Boy Scout Jamboree brings to mind the Scout promise and Scout law, the former being "On my honour I promise that I will do my best to do my duty to God and the Queen, to help other people at all times, to obey the Scout law", which law commences that a Scout is to be trusted, and is loyal to the Queen, his country, his Scouters, his parents, his employers, and to those under him — seemingly in that order."

Now here comes the big long rhetorical question.

"With the Queen given prominence in both, and the country mentioned only in the law, and there following the Queen, isn't this inhibiting the development of normal patriotism? To have a form of personal loyalty to an individual (in this case not even an Australian) is more brainwashing of impressionable, immature minds. Also there is the top grade of Queen's Scout, again something not really Australian, therefore inappropriate."

CHRISTINA: What's a Queen's Scout? A queen bee but a boy one.

PENNY: Yeah, and I think there's more than one. And I think, it's just the top level of scouting.

CHRISTINA: A lofty aspiration.

PENNY: Yeah, when you've got all the badges.

CHRISTINA: When you've done all the knots. You too can be a Queens Scout.

PENNY: When you've started a forest fire, and then put it out again.

CHRISTINA: And rescued 3 koalas.

PENNY: He continues

"This sounds a little like a 'mother's boy'. How then can much hope be placed in Australian youth to cast off the still lingering but definite constitutional and spiritual yoke of British subjection so long as this hobbling foolishness is continued."

LINCOLN: I have no idea what Milton ever had to do with the Scouts. I suspect absolutely nothing.

CHRISTINA: He saw the Jamboree and it pissed him off!

LINCOLN: I think that's right.

CHRISTINA: Get out of my way! Would have been a very large gathering and probably quite annoying.

PENNY: Yeah, I think he was just reaching. It's hard to know how many letters he wrote. Because these are the ones that were published.

CHRISTINA: These are the ones that made it through.

PENNY: Maybe ever day he just went through the paper

CHRISTINA: The daily rumination of Milton.

PENNY: Obviously the Scouts were pissed off. And there not going to take this lying down.

CHRISTINA: It's hard to piss off the Scouts.

PENNY: Well, you know they're prepared and they're ready to take on any critics. And this letter is from Janet Booth and it was published on 2nd February and it is headed 'Not Mother's Boys'.

CHRISTINA: Well we already know where this is going.

27:30

"Sir, — With regard to Eugene Sanchez's letter. What a lot of rubbish he has written! From his letter it is obvious that he knows absolutely nothing whatsoever about the Scout movement"

Which, to be fair, is true.

"Or he certainly would not have called a Queen's Scout "mother's little boy", which insinuates that he is a softie. Unless, of course, he thinks 14-mile overnight hikes, etc, are easy."

CHRISTINA: In the pouring rain, with no boots on.

PENNY: "Secondly, why shouldn't the Queen come first in order of preference for loyalty? After all she is the Head of State."

Imagine saying that Milton. Oh my god.

LINCOLN: That wouldn't have gone well.

PENNY: "As a Queen's Guide"

She's in the Guides and she's a, she's actually a 16 year old girl. I looked her up.

CHRISTINA: Gosh Janet's giving it a go.

LINCOLN: Yeah, good on her! Plucky.

PENNY: "As a Queen's Guide I would certainly be loyal to the Queen and the country as long as she is the Head of State.

In my opinion it is better to put the trust of the nation's welfare in the hands of former Scouts and Guides than the likes of Mr Sanchez."

CHRISTINA: So she's how old?

PENNY: 16. 'Cause the previous year there was an article on her when she got the Queen's Guide.

CHRISTINA: 'Cause now this kid would just do a TikTok. Just so that everyone knows how they feel and we wouldn't be using words like that.

PENNY: "The law which says a Guide or Scout is a friend to all and a brother/sister to every other Guide and Scout might help to prevent the earth being blown to high heaven by wars."

That's quite nice actually.

CHRISTINA: Good on Janet Booth.

PENNY: 'Cause Milton was quite into the old wars actually.

LINCOLN: Yes I think so. Don't think a fan of disarmament, let's put it that way.

PENNY: One thing I was thinking while I was looking at these letters, most of them are from 1969 to 1976, and that covers quite an interesting time in Australian politics with the Whitlam government coming in in 1972 and being quite a time of change and then getting the boot in 1974 and unfortunately there's a bit of a gap, there's not that many letters from the Whitlam government era. I don't know why. Maybe there were letters about other things at that time rather than the republic.

LINCOLN: Maybe Milton was just out of the country, on one of his trips to South America, it's quite possible.

PENNY: Yeah, 'cause I mean I guess their kids would have left home then and they could have been travelling or something like that but there's a letter from 1976 where he does refer to it, so we can sort of get his view, at least on the dismissal. He says. This is titled 'Australian Independence'.

30:15

"I have noted, but with wry amusement, the new postage stamp marking 75 years of so called Australian "nationhood". Considering the events of recent months, particularly the Governor-General's exercise of the "Royal power" of a monarch not an Australian in cutting short the expected life of an undeserving government, the very idea that this country is an independent nation is just a big laugh."

Now when he calls it an 'undeserving government' I'm not sure if it's undeserving of being cut down or undeserving of being in government.

CHRISTINA: I think it's of government, is how I'm reading it.

PENNY: What do you think Lincoln?

LINCOLN: I'm not sure. I can't parse that. But this must have been a real tension for Milton because he would have abhorred John Kerr's dismissal of Whitlam. I think it's pretty clear he thought it shouldn't

PENNY: Shouldn't have been capable of doing it

LINCOLN: The worst, the absolute worst case of the Queen's power being exercised to override Australian independence. On the other hand, it's 1975 - was when Franco died. So he lost Whitlam and Franco. And it's hard to imagine Milton's being a huge fan of Gough

PENNY: And of Franco

LINCOLN: And a huge fan of Franco at the same time.

CHRISTINA: Exactly.

LINCOLN: Hard to imagine.

PENNY: And he continues

"And that the constitutional situation is so little changed after 75 years, with the country being no more than an up jumped collection of British colonies, indicates there must be something missing in the makeup of Australians. Otherwise they would not have left unfinished the work of becoming independent of the continuing British association which perpetuates a lesser position for Australia.

I wonder"

This is sad this next sentence.

"I wonder whether this may have been achieved even a century after 1901."

LINCOLN: That is a bit sad.

PENNY: It was not achieved. So what happened with the republic vote, with the referendum. Milton must have been devastated with the result or was he just like 'I told you you guys were shit bags!'

CHRISTINA: Slobs!

PENNY: You won't help yourselves.

LINCOLN: You're hopeless.

CHRISTINA: Stand up.

PENNY: Stand up straight boy!

LINCOLN: Milton was a big believer in standing up straight. Always stood up very straight. Every morning got up and did extensive series of physical jerks exercises outside in their backyard.

PENNY: Like military style?

LINCOLN: Military style.

CHRISTINA: Nice. Ready for the day.

LINCOLN: Before breakfast got ready for the day. Yeah, in '99 for the Republic referendum I'd just left Adelaide and moved to Melbourne to study.

PENNY: Oh, that was why.

LINCOLN: I got involved in the Australian Republican Movement. I was handing out how to votes in the referendum.

CHRISTINA: Milton would have been very proud.

LINCOLN: And I don't recall hearing about Milton's response. I'm sure I spoke to my folks and we were all just a bit sad about the referendum. I don't recall hearing Milton's response particularly but I'm sure he thought it was 'just typical.'

PENNY: They must have just had to keep him sedated for a couple of weeks.

LINCOLN: Because of course, he couldn't participate because he wasn't a citizens.

CHRISTINA: Angry on the sidelines.

PENNY: He'd been on his high horse and he wouldn't sign up. It's not his fault, I don't think one more vote would have made a difference.

LINCOLN: No, it wasn't that close even, unfortunately. But I think there would have been an awful lot of 'I told you so.' But it has been interesting to hear that he also deplored Australia cosying up too close to the US and really just wanted us to be properly independent.

PENNY: Yeah that is interesting.

LINCOLN: And I don't remember hearing that from him. But maybe the view changed.

PENNY: Because he hated anyone bludging off the US and taking so he thought they were being used.

LINCOLN: Right, so maybe it was for the protection of the Americans.

CHRISTINA: They needed a lot of support.

PENNY: And that's pretty much the last letter that was published from 1976 and obviously I don't know if he stopped writing, or did they stop publishing

CHRISTINA: Or was he banned.

PENNY: Did they stop publishing them, did Alison take away all his pens and his typewriter.

CHRISTINA: Or said she was posting them but wasn't.

LINCOLN: That's interesting.

PENNY: Pop that in. Or possibly there's some kind of digitization gap or something that

LINCOLN: After '82 they moved to Adelaide.

PENNY: That's still a bit of gap.

LINCOLN: They were still in Garran

PENNY: Because they were there when you were born in '78

LINCOLN: And I was taken over there to visit a couple of times.

PENNY: So mainly, obviously the republic was his big topic. There was another topic he liked to write about a few times. He was very critical of Australia's international aid efforts. Which, you know, I had a fair bit of sympathy for this letter in particular. It's from the 13th June 1970.

35:32

"Sir, I wish to support Mrs Van Der Sprenkel's criticism (Letters, June 8) of the Federal Government's grant of $15,000 for relief of earthquake victims in Peru."

So this is $15,000 in 1970.

LINCOLN: That wouldn't have gone very far.

PENNY: No, so it's about $200,000, bit less. And this earthquake in Peru, is probably one of the biggest earthquakes ever, most destructive. 70,000 people died. 150,000 were injured. It was a massive, massive event. So Milton says,

"If this isn't a first-class example of bludging, then what is it? I, too, am ashamed for this country. In the face of such small-thinking small mindedness is it any wonder that philanthropy is so poorly developed here, and the idea of doing for others less fortunate by far than most Australians"

His sentences are so confusing!

CHRISTINA: Yeah, they're quite strangely constructed.

PENNY: I'm gonna try that again.

"In the face of such small-thinking small mindedness is it any wonder that philanthropy is so poorly developed here, and the idea of doing for others less fortunate by far than most Australians something which would seem hardly to have occurred to this Government."

LINCOLN: Well done.

CHRISTINA: Feels unfinished.

PENNY: "As well off as this country is, it could surely come through with a grant on the order of half a million dollars, and stop letting others carry most of the burden, as usual."

CHRISTINA: Fair call. Fair call.

PENNY: So he did, obviously he hated bludging. But he did also have some sense of caring about other people. Do you think? Or was it mainly about the bludging.

LINCOLN: So interesting. You never got a strong sense of social justice from Milton. We'll put it that way.

PENNY: That was more from Alison.

LINCOLN: Oh God yes. But I don't yes.

PENNY: Because there was also a flood in Pakistan that he was very concerned about the amount of aid that went to that.

LINCOLN: I think it wasn't just, I think the bludging was a motivating thing that maybe made him pick up the typewriter. But he was very internationally focused he was very aware of the rest of the world and avid consumer of world media. And, usually this would manifest as after he'd made himself problematic in the lead up to a family meal he'd be told 'Milton, take the Guardian and read it in the car.' So he'd be given the very thin, rice paper, airmail copy of the Guardian Weekly that we used to get and sent out to sit in the car and read it in the car. And Milton never complained about being sent out.

PENNY: I thought that he wanted to go and sit in the car and would take himself off. But was he mainly sent?

CHRISTINA: Or was he pre-empting.

LINCOLN: Yes, exactly Christina.

CHRISTINA: He read the room.

LINCOLN: If he just toddled off by himself he'd be told off, 'Milton, you haven't seen the children for weeks' but if he was sufficiently difficult he'd be told 'Milton, you can sit in the car.' And he'd go 'Well I, Well I, Well I' and then just with the very minor show of unhappiness that wasn't, would toddle off to the car.

PENNY: And he'd be brought drinks and snacks.

LINCOLN: I definitely remember being told. 'Lincoln, take this whiskey out to your grandfather. And I'd be given a bowl of nuts and a whiskey in a"

CHRISTINA: It's kind of a drive-through situation.

LINCOLN: Exactly and you'd go out to the driveway and Milton'd roll down the window, he'd go "Oh good, good, good, good, good boy.'

39:13

PENNY: And he had a special connection to South America didn't he?

LINCOLN: Oh yes. And it was because of trains. So Milton loved travel and he loved trains. He loved trains in exotic locations.

CHRISTINA: It's quite niche.

LINCOLN: Oh it gets more niche. Now, obviously being interested in trains is a thing. But I think most trainspotters tend to be interested in the hardware, they're interested in seeing a particular train or writing down the engine number. Milton completely uninterested in the actual train. Only interested in the train line. Not obviously the construction, nothing technical about the train. There's nothing technical about Milton. Milton had an Arts degree. Milton was very much,

CHRISTINA: I understand Milton.

LINCOLN: And so for Milton the interesting thing was to find a train line that went from an obscure location to another obscure location or set a record for something.

CHRISTINA: Right.

LINCOLN: But it could be the most easterly train station in South America. Or the highest train stop in the Andes. Or something like this and then the important thing was to go there and ride the train line to the notable location, that's not notable as far as anyone else's concerned.

CHRISTINA: No.

LINCOLN: And then back. Anything that was actually written up in the Guinness Book of Records

long since done. But still had to keep generating new obscure train trips. And so my enduring recollection was Milton, whiskey, spread out across the table and then the Atlas, pouring over the Atlas trying to find a new train line that might be worth flying to South America for.

CHRISTINA: Gosh, all before Google.

LINCOLN: Oh yes.

PENNY: So, how many times would he have gone to South America?

LINCOLN: I think it was in the end 19, or something like this.

PENNY: He wasn't a wealthy person either.

LINCOLN: No. Milton had, Milton worked in the ANU library, but his job in the ANU library was quite junior. I think he might have been a geography subject librarian at the top, that was the high end of his career. Certainly

PENNY: He'd be good at that though.

LINCOLN: Oh yes I think he was probably, I think if you asked a question, you'd get a very long answer. Certainly knew where to find the Atlas. But no, Milton had a way of solving this problem. Of how do you get to South America, sometimes with Alison, but often not and not spend any money. And this was this thing called Space A.

PENNY: What's Space A.

LINCOLN: Space A was Space Available. And this was the idea that if you were retired from the US military, you could get a free flight on a US transport anywhere in the world if there was Space Available.

CHRISTINA: Wow.

PENNY: I imagine that most people did not do this.

LINCOLN: I don't think it was widely used. I think you had to apply in advance and give them some notice and you could be bumped at very short notice because the Hercules

CHRISTINA: Space no longer available.

LINCOLN: Because there's a tank there, not you. And so my grandmother recalls a number of trips across the Pacific, in webbing seats with a tank next to them.

CHRISTINA: How relaxing.

LINCOLN: Or at least in, maybe the seats weren't webbing, but at least in the cargo hold. And it was all perfectly well heated and you got a meal and everything.

PENNY: Oh really.

CHRISTINA: Some entertainment options.

LINCOLN: But basically they'd drive off to Edinburgh Airforce Base or something north of Adelaide and wait in some US transport land and they'd get on it and beetle off to South America or whereever and often in rather indirect, with odd stopovers in less than wonderfully comfortable bases and all the rest of it. But he knew the system and he rattled around through it and I think eventually it stopped and I don't know if that was because Space Available

PENNY: Because he'd rorted the system. Loop holes!

LINCOLN: Milton single-handedly had used up too much Space Available and they weren't doing it anymore.

43:14

PENNY: So Lincoln is it okay if we talk about one of Milton's last trips to South America.

LINCOLN: Yes.

PENNY: And I think you know the one I'm talking about.

LINCOLN: This is a great story. So he

PENNY: How old was he? In his mid-80s.

LINCOLN: Must have been mid-80s or late 80s. He was

CHRISTINA: Oh my God.

LINCOLN: Not young. And Milton didn't really get packing for travelling. So when he was going for highest train stop in the Andes. He wouldn't be wearing some Gautex and carbon-fiber.

CHRISTINA: No Katmandu

LINCOLN: There was no Katmandu. There was a pair of shiny soled leather shoes. Some slacks. A shirt. Maybe a woolen knit but not much and Milton would then take off to somewhere really, really, really cold completely unprepared. Okay so on this occasion I'm pretty sure that by this point that Milton was showing signs of cognitive decline and was in fact on a experimental anti-Alzheimer drug, Aricept. But, you know, was still able to tell you about the war debts. I think Alison had said, 'There is to be no more travel Milton.' Anyway, Alison had gone to the shops. She came home from the shops. Milton was not in the unit of the retirement village. Which was a bit unusual for him to go out by himself. She looked around didn't notice anything untoward. Then she saw there was paper sticking out of the typewriter. Typed on was just one line and it said, 'Gone to South America. Back in 2 weeks'.

CHRISTINA: Oh my God. This is a bit like 'Up'.

PENNY: Is it? I haven't seen it.

LINCOLN: And she thought, 'Oh dear, he can't have made it that far.' But in fact, he had. And he was well and truly off.

PENNY: And what had he packed.

LINCOLN: Not very much. I think the suitcase was a couple of shirts and the slacks, one pair of shoes and not his Aricept. He did not take his pills.

CHRISTINA: Left some Space Available.

LINCOLN: And I think this was not a Space Available flight. He must have made a couple of trips out while Alison was at the shops down to the travel agent to get all the tickets booked and so on.

CHRISTINA: Dipped into his super.

LINCOLN: And I think that's where, probably where the trail got picked up of tracking down Milton. Because it was pretty clear Milton was not really going to be okay after probably not in general, but certainly not after a few days off the pills.

CHRISTINA: oh my god.

LINCOLN: So I think the trail started at the travel agent. Who knew who Milton was and told Alison the tickets that they'd sold to Santiago or wherever it was. We were pretty concerned and my mother and father helping called the police and then pretty much got onto the Department of Foreign Affairs and they had to try to work out where he was. It became pretty clear pretty quickly that we weren't going to find him through the Department of Foreign Affairs. After all not an Australian citizens, may have been their comment.

CHRISTINA: Bit of a problem

LINCOLN: Not really one of ours.

CHRISTINA: It's an American gone rogue.

PENNY: And that's been a decision that he's made on purpose.

LINCOLN: Yes, exactly.

CHRISTINA: He's reiterated his decisions for many years.

LINCOLN: And so,

PENNY: We're just not tall enough to help him.

CHRISTINA: No, slobs!

LINCOLN: Not standing up straight enough. Someone, I don't know who called the Department of State in the US and to their credit they swung into action and I think

CHRISTINA: Americans love a crisis. I mean, it's got movie potential too, so they were hoping.

PENNY: Yeah, 'Saving Major Sanchez'.

LINCOLN: Yes, Major Sanchez. So I think my mother must have called Foggy Bottom in Washington and said Eugene Sanchez US Army Major retired is lost in South America.

CHRISTINA: M.I.A.

PENNY: And they sent out an all-stations alert across South America to all the embassies and consulates. Of course, US has got quite the network across South America. And within 48 hours they had a lead that he'd gone through somewhere in Chile and then to a smaller town and then ended up in some high in the mountains, very small town and checked into a hotel there.

PENNY: So he got very far.

LINCOLN: He got a long way.

CHRISTINA: Wow.

LINCOLN: Presumably most of the way up a mountain to catch a train.

PENNY: So did he get to do his special train journey?

CHRISTINA: I really hope he did.

PENNY: I know!

CHRISTINA: How frustrating.

LINCOLN: My mum will know. I don't think so.

CHRISTINA: At least a photo by the train before he was put in the tank.

LINCOLN: This was the thing he didn't even take photos reliably. So you did these things and you didn't get anything.

CHRISTINA: No slide night?

LINCOLN: Well they did do a slide night. I think Alison did a better. We got the occasional side night.

PENNY: I've seen some photos once that he had written on the back what they were. And he'd written things like 'Somewhere in the Andes'. 'Somewhere in the Andes' and then the next one was 'Presumably somewhere Andes'.

CHRISTINA: Yeah, nice.

LINCOLN: That sounds about right. You see if Alison was along with him.

CHRISTINA: She would have documented it.

LINCOLN: You'd get some decent photos. And you'd get some more interesting stories. But really, while, if Alison was happy to come along for the train trip, that was okay with Milton, but if she didn't come then Milton found some way to go off anyway. There's a family story where he was checking in at an airline counter, he'd handed over his passport and then they said, 'Mr Sanchez, are you travelling alone today?' and he said, 'Yes, I'm alone except for wife.'

CHRISTINA: She was his carry-on.

PENNY: If there's Space Available, she can come.

CHRISTINA: Otherwise, you're bumped.

49:25

PENNY: So when I hear all these things about Milton and it's mainly from hearing these things, not, when I met him, I did occasionally see him ark up about the republicanism but mainly not and he was really very kind

LINCOLN: He could be quite affable.

PENNY: Very pleasant to me, just very nice interactions. But when I hear all these stories, and obviously I don't want to diagnose people, I can't help thinking that I think Milton was autistic.

LINCOLN: Yes, I think we

CHRISTINA: I've got my educators hat on here and I'm thinking 'yeah, little Milton was quite fixated on a few things there'.

LINCOLN: Milton had some special interests.

CHRISTINA: That he didn't share with others.

PENNY: Didn't need others to share. He was interested in what he was interested in. Didn't matter if other people were as well.

LINCOLN: Milton had some sensory issues. Milton abhorred anything that was sticky. If a dessert was served that was even, even finger-food he'd go. 'Lal', which is short for Alison. 'Ooh, ooh, Lal. This is sticky. I need to wash my hands.' Had another unique sensory issues. Which was tight underwear.

PENNY: Maybe not unique.

CHRISTINA: He preferred tight, or didn't want tight.

LINCOLN: Hated the feeling of the elastic and would snip around the elastic band of the

CHRISTINA: I can't stand tight underwear either. I'm with Milton with that. I always buy underwear 2 sizes too big. I actually hate the feeling of underwear elastic. I hate it.

LINCOLN: Do you snip around?

CHRISTINA: I don't snip.

PENNY: She's found another way.

CHRISTINA: I upsize.

PENNY: He used to cut the tags off clothes and stuff as well. And noise?

LINCOLN: Noise. Children making noise. This was one of the reasons you wanted to get the pass-out for the car. To be able to have your drink in the car.

PENNY: Which is fair enough.

CHRISTINA: To be honest I share that as well with Milton. Which can be challenging

LINCOLN: You're a teacher.

CHRISTINA: In my general life.

PENNY: Small children running around. And I think it must have been hard for him. Because, often we sort of laugh, about oh he had all these foibles or whatever but when you think about it like how he would have been experiencing things.

LINCOLN: I think it was, I think it could be pretty intense. Because they had a small neurotic dog that yapped and then small children coming and chasing the dog around and around the small house and I can remember him going. 'Say kids, let's have a whispering party. Let's have a whispering party.'

CHRISTINA: Cos they're so fun.

LINCOLN: We never had a whispering party.

PENNY: And probably wasn't something that he had any control of.

LINCOLN: I don't think so. But then on the other hand Milton could sometimes be very loud himself. I'm not thinking here about dining table exegesis. I'm thinking about when something really exciting happened in Milton's life. Really exciting and unexpected. Really exciting and unexpected for example would be the unexpected appearance of a train. Had to be unexpected. Train coming into train station intended to catch train.

PENNY: Boring.

LINCOLN: Can manage to keep that together. Train going over an overpass while you're driving under the train. Now that would cause Milton to go, 'Whoop, whoop, whoop'. And it was called the whoops in our family. And someone would go, 'Oh, that gave Milton the whoops.' And if you were driving along with him that could be quite alarming. But there was one time where my father very very nearly had a heart attack. Which was that, I think this was in the UK somewhere. They'd just rented a car and driving back to where we were staying. Dad had pulled over, just to check the boot was shut, or something like this, but had pulled over on the side of a busy road in London I think. And had just opened the door, driver's side door to step out into traffic, having looked carefully. Milton was in the passenger seat and at the instant that my father opened the door, 'Whoop! Whoop! David'. And my father said that his life passed before his eyes because he was sure he was just about to be collected by a truck that was just coming past.

PENNY: What was it?

LINCOLN: He jumped back in the car and slammed the door, 'Milton what?' 'Train, David, train!' And there was a train going over the overpass just 500 metres down the A-road from where they were. And I think my father was clutching his heart, 'Milton, I thought I was just about to be killed.' You know, anything mixed-modal transport would usually get the whoops going. But they were loud.

PENNY: But he had things that he enjoyed.

LINCOLN: Oh yeah.

PENNY: It sounds like your family, as much as maybe in retrospect, if you knew these days you might think about it a bit differently.

LINCOLN: I think so.

PENNY: But in some ways you were doing things to accommodate. Him and going and sitting in the car, that's not a bad solution.

CHRISTINA: You were making reasonable adjustments and modifications.

PENNY: I think so.

LINCOLN: I think my grandmother

PENNY: She made a lot of reasonable adjustments

LINCOLN: And she thought some of them were unreasonable.

CHRISTINA: Did she ever elicit a 'whoop, whoop'.

P; You mean from Milton.

CHRISTINA: Like when he first met her. Was that a whoop moment? Or?

PENNY: They met on a train, didn't they?

CHRISTINA: Well, it was already a heightened state.

LINCOLN: I think it was a whirlwind romance. But yes, when they got together I think she was. It was a bit of a sad story. She had an Australian boyfriend in the war and he went off to war and was killed. I don't know what the delay was, but it was WWII and life was at a fast pace and somewhat later in the war she was on a train from Sydney to Canberra and Milton came into the compartment, I think by the end of the train ride they were, they'd decided they'd see each other again.

CHRISTINA: I thought you were gonna say they were married by that point, with a child on the way.

LINCOLN: Not quite I think. But it was quick I think.

PENNY: He was a very interesting person.

LINCOLN: He was an interesting person.

PENNY: And I mean, some of it's quirks, some of its fun, some of it we now admire the way he's prepared to speak up about things that he believed in and some of it is sort of like, er, nah, not so into that. But, that's probably like anyone. But you know a little bit less conventional, a little bit more interesting n some ways.

LINCOLN: yeah, absolutely.

PENNY: Did you have anything else that you wanted to add about Milton that you feel like?

LINCOLN: I'm sure there are more stories but I think we've covered the main interests.

PENNY: And the main things that you saw from his life. Obviously there's much more to him than what we've talked about toay.

LINCOLN: Yeah, and look he was an interesting grandparent and he did like talking to kids and talking about the world. So you could learn a lot of geography from Milton. You could learn a lot about history. You could learn about politics. And it wasn't just holding forth. He wanted us to learn and he wanted to answer questions. And then he also, there were times when he just wanted us to be quiet and have a whispering party.

PENNY: Thank you very much Lincoln for coming in today and talking to us about Milton.

LINCOLN: It's been an absolute pleasure. I've enjoyed being on the other side of the mixing desk.

PENNY: It's easier, isn't it?

LINCOLN: Oh so much.

CHRISTINA: Good being the talent.

LINCOLN: Don't go too far.

PENNY: It's been really nice to be back here. And nice to be in this lovely studio in the State Library.

CHRISTINA: This is a very luxe arrangement. Disappointed the morning tea didn't come through. But apart from that.

PENNY: Could have done with a little bowl of nuts and a whiskey. But anyway.

CHRISTINA: And some lemon.

LINCOLN: I'd say a coffee, but I'd go a gin and tonic at this point.

CHRISTINA: Look whatever gets you through a Sunday.

(piano music)