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00:11 This podcast was recorded at State Library Victoria on Aboriginal land, the land of the Wurunjeri people of the Kulin Nations. We pay our respects to their elders past and present.

00:21 (piano music)
00:31 PENNY: Hello, welcome back to In Those Days. I'm here with Christina Adams.
CHRISTINA: Hi Penny, how are you?
PENNY: I'm good thanks. And we're gonna start, before we have our guest today, with some Trove chat.
CHRISTINA: Excellent.
PENNY: Now, Christina have you seen that Trove's been in the news?
CHRISTINA: I have not seen that Penny. I've been a bit distracted by Prince Harry in the news. Sorry.
PENNY: That has been big. Are you gonna read it?
CHRISTINA: I think I'll read 'Spare' just to give it a go. See what it's all about. Though I think I have a good understanding.
PENNY: I feel like I'm getting the gist of it.
CHRISTINA: Yeah.
PENNY: From the news reports of the day.
CHRISTINA: Yeah, it's pretty clear.
PENNY: No, actually Trove, the National Library of Australia's repository, digital repository, has been in the news because they've been reporting that it may have to shut down mid-this year.
CHRISTINA: Why?
PENNY: Which is bad for us obviously, cos.
CHRISTINA: It makes it a bit awkward really.
PENNY: That's the basis of the podcast. Because they're running out of funding. They've been funded basically on a like a piecemeal kind of way. They get a bunch of funding, and then it runs out and they ask for more, and ask for more. And they're getting to the end of that again and don't really have an ongoing commitment from the government. That is quite concerning.
CHRISTINA: It is concerning.
PENNY: To me. And I think particularly when Trove was first launch it was really world leading. And, but like all kind of digital things it needs to be updated, it needs like constant funding. And I think it's quite, it's quite wasteful to have to continuously ask for it, they should just make a commitment to it.
CHRISTINA: Exactly.
PENNY: We are obviously a pro-Trove podcast. Unashamedly. You're not going to get both-sidesing on that issue here.
CHRISTINA: No, no affirmative and negative sides taken.
PENNY: This is not a debate. If people want to help Trove. I think a really good thing to do at the moment would be to write to the federal Arts Minister Tony Burke. Because he has been making quite positive noises about supporting the arts, but he hasn't said anything about what that means for Trove. So I'll provide the details of how you can contact him. And also your local member and Anthony Albanese the Prime Minister as well.
02:33 (piano music)
02:42 PENNY: Now we're gonna introduce our guest.
CHRISTINA: Yay.
PENNY: She is a forest lover and activist, she's an artist, ceramicist, musician, and she is also my cousin, it's Felicity Law.
FELICITY: Hello.
PENNY: Felicity, what's are experience with using Trove?
FELICITY: I had the immense pleasure of spending a week at the National Library of Australia with my friend Luke, who had a fellowship, and we spent a lot of time in the digital archives. And it was on that occasion that I learned about Trove. And started delving in the huge resources. So since then, I've been very, very pro-Trove.
PENNY: Do you still use it recreationally at home?
FELICITY: Of course!
CHRISTINA: Are you a recreational user of Trove?
FELICITY: Yes, I'm an enthusiastic recreational user of Trove and it's an incredible resource.
PENNY: I think that's the great thing about Trove that it lets people use it for all kinds of different things. Like you can use it casually just for fun, and then there's also researchers and policy makers and proper historians and all kinds of different people using it. And it's that access that makes it really important. Anyway, but the thing we're gonna talk to you today about is gliders. And in particular greater gliders and yellow-bellied gilders. Christina, you have a degree in zoology.
CHRISTINA: Yeah, I do. Yes, I have an Arts degree and a Science degree and my Science degree was zoology based. Yes. All zoology actually. As soon as I could drop other dull subjects like chemistry and physics, I did. And just focused on zoology.
PENNY: And Christina's a big, big animal lover.
CHRISTINA: I am.
PENNY: And Felicity has been involved in forest activism a lot over the last few years. But the thing that I have to admit is that when I first heard about greater gliders, I didn't know what they were, and I just assumed they were a bird. And so for quite a long time I was listening to people talk about greater gliders and how they needed to be saved and I was just imagining them setting in a little. I thought they were birds.
CHRISTINA: Okay.
PENNY: But they're not birds. What are greater gliders Felicity?
FELICITY: Yeah, so can I just say I'm not a glider expert.
PENNY: No, but you do know that they're not birds.
FELICITY: I'm very clear they're not birds. My lay understanding of greater gliders; they're an arboreal mammal that live in the eastern states and they're about the size of a koala actually. They're completely and utterly adorable. It's hard to describe just how incredibly gorgeous a greater glider is. They've got these enormous fluffy ears and their long tails look like feather boas. They're quite amazing.
CHRISTINA: That's where you got confused Penny, with the feathers. That must have been it.
PENNY: That kind of terminology. That's what did me in.
FELICITY: So they're an adorable. I mean, they're a possum actually. They're a gliding possum.
PENNY: Christina, have you seen gliders in the wild?
CHRISTINA: I have. And we actually have quite a big population of sugar gliders on our property. We see them quite regularly. Yeah, so that's been quite exciting. We've even had to call a wildlife rescue team to come and collect one one day when it wasn't travelling terrible well. I've had much more experience with the smaller versions, but I am aware of the greater gliders.
PENNY: They're called greater because they're big.
CHRISTINA: And they're the best.
PENNY: But I got to see one with Felicity at the end of 2021, we went out. We took my kids, which I did not necessarily think was a very good idea cos I was worried that the gliders wouldn't like the noise of the children, but they don't care. Cos they're up the tree, they know they can't get them. We went out and it was very hot and I had a very little baby so I was sitting in the car with the baby. There were mosquitoes and I was thinking, I'm not gonna get to see a glider. And then all of a sudden, they came up and said, 'Penny, Penny, come on. Come and see.' And I was out of the car for about 30 seconds I think and bam there was a glider. It went up the tree and I saw the tail.
CHRISTINA: That's how all wildlife encounters should be. I've been out for 30 seconds, here it is. Philip Island has a lot to learn.
PENNY: Yeah, it was really, really lovely. So, I went and I wanted to find out if there were many newspaper articles about gliders so I went and I looked in Trove and I searched for greater gliders. Did not find much, but that was because that's not what they used to call greater gliders. Do you know what they used to call them?
FELICITY: No. No idea. What did they used to call them?
PENNY: They used to call them flying squirrels.
CHRISTINA: Excellent. Everyone loves a squirrel.
PENNY: Because, of course, when Europeans came to Australia and they were looking at the flora and fauna here they really couldn't accept that it was just different. They had to kind of try and map it back to things that they already knew. They saw the marsupials as actually inferior to placental mammals as well. So they'd sort of see it as 'oh it's a squirrel but not quite right'. You know.
CHRISTINA: An NQR squirrel.
PENNY: I read a book by James Ashby where he talked about that. Yeah and often when they talk about platypuses and echidnas as being weird, and somehow wrong and more primitive. That's kind of like, that just Europeans ideas of coming to Australia and going 'Well, everything's just not quite as good.' And sometimes maybe that's why we can just takeover as well, because we're better and everything we do is better.
CHRISTINA: We had a school excursion years and years ago at Healesville Sanctuary, I'm just going slightly off track here. But we had a bunch of American tourists on the same sort of tight path that we were on. And when we went into the platypus sanctuary our kids were all excited but there was an American guy was like 'Oh yeah, we've got those back at home. We call them beavers.' Actually, it's a completely different thing but thanks for your thoughts. So I guess a little bit similar.
08:42 PENNY: And you know, because actually platypus, they're actually perfectly evolved for their environment. Same with gliders. Anyway. I found an article that was from quite early. From 1854. And it's called 'Long-tailed, or great flying squirrels'. And they say that the scientific name is Petauvista tagunoides but they changed that to Petauvista volans. And the article says:
"This beautiful animal (one of our Australian Marsupials) is the largest of the genus at present known to us. It measures about 3 feet 6 inches in length"
I suppose that's about right. It's a bit, it's just a bit more than the centre circle at netball.
"Of which the tail is more than one half. The body is covered all over with a soft dense fur; the colour on the upper portion of the body is of a glossy black, while the under parts are pure white."
FELICITY: Umm yeah. There's actually huge colour variation.
PENNY: So they probably just saw some that were that colour. Cos I think that was often a bit of a problem with colour, like, they'd assume that animals that were different colours were different species, but they're not necessarily.
"The female has usually two or three young ones at a birth."
I dunno. I didn't look that up. It might be true.
"They feed chiefly on the largest of the Eucalypti, or Gum Trees, preferring the leaves and young shoots of those trees, though occasionally they eat insects."
They don't eat insects. Felicity's shaking her head. They do not eat insects. This is 1854. They
CHRISTINA: They were giving it a crack.
PENNY: They got a lot of stuff wrong.
"The Great Flying Squirrel is found nearly all over New South Wales; in fact, whereever the large gum trees abound, this animal is sure to be met with."
And actually, they're in all of Eastern Australia but we've found out recently, didn't we that people used to think it was just the one species of glider but they're actually three different species.
FELICITY: And actually just hearing you talk so this article's from 1854. How distressing it is that once this animal was so common and now they're in such trouble.
PENNY: It is. It is upsetting.
"Like most of the Marsupials it moves about at night. The most remarkable feature in this genus is the broad membrane connecting the fore and hind legs, which enables the animal to leap from tree to tree for a considerable distance ; hence it has obtained the appellation of the Flying Squirrel."
Yeah, cos it's the same with other Australian species like the thylacine, which they called the Tasmanian tiger.
CHRISTINA: Yeah, you've gotta link it back to the home country.
FELICITY: Oh, of course.
PENNY: Something people can understand, like koala bears. And then this next part, they say:
"The aborigines have a superstitious dread of destroying them, and it is only when severely pressed by hunger that they are induced to use them as food."
I don't know if that is true. I found other articles saying that Aboriginal people did hunt gliders, but I think what's interesting there is the use of the word 'superstitious'.
CHRISTINA: Yes.
PENNY: Because it's sort of, you know, saying, that's superstition, it's silly it's, whereas what we're doing is proper science you know, we're collecting all these species and learning about them and understanding the real thing whereas in reality, what we know is there were once lots of greater gliders, and they were fine and then European people arrived and now we're in a situation where we've basically wrecked the place. Also not really acknowledged is that naturalists were really helped by Aboriginal people, showing them where to go, getting knowledge off them, which often they didn't write about either. They didn't acknowledge.
This is a picture that came with the article.
CHRISTINA: Well they look very squirrelly.
FELICITY: And the tails aren't nearly long enough.
PENNY: Yeah. Yeah, because often the drawings aren't necessarily very accurate.
FELICITY: But good sleuthing. It's interesting you found an article from then. I mean, how amazing.
PENNY: The other problem with looking for flying squirrels I think there was a boat called the Flying Squirrel. So,
FELICITY: Oh Gosh, so the search led you
PENNY: So when you search, 'Oh this bloody boat.' So yellow-bellied gliders. Different type of glider. Not a sub-set of greater gliders.
FELICITY: No.
13:10 PENNY: There was an article from the Australasian from the 12th of April 1941. And this article was by David Fleay. Have you heard of David Fleay Felicity?
FELICITY: No I haven't.
PENNY: Haven't you? He's an interesting man. He was a naturalist, scientist, biologist and he had a very full and interesting life. So he actually took some of the last footage, video footage of the last thylacine in captivity. And it bit him on the arse.
CHRISTINA: The thylacine or the footage?
FELICITY: Oh, literally?
PENNY: Yeah.
FELICITY: And fair enough.
PENNY: Famous story. Ah yeah.
FELICITY: But fair enough.
PENNY: Yeah, and he thought so too, like he was like, he wasn't mad.
CHRISTINA: He had it coming.
PENNY: Oh, and he was also the first person to breed platypus in captivity. And he also bred a lot of other animals in captivity. And he had a private collection of native animals. So that's a bit
CHRISTINA: Kind of like Tiger King.
FELICITY: So ethically it would perhaps not pass today.
PENNY: Not today, no. But I mean he was very interested in conservation as well. Yeah, it's complicated, I think. And he also shipped platypuses to New York. It was like platypus diplomacy. It was somehow meant to. It was only 2.
CHRISTINA: Instead of an olive branch sent a platypus.
PENNY: Yeah, basically. It was only 2 of them. But yeah, they sent them to the zoo.
CHRISTINA: Disappointing.
PENNY: And he was the director of Healesville Sanctuary for awhile. Anyway, he wrote in the, he had a column in the paper for years and he first published it under the name of Boobook and then under his own name. He writes quite evocatively, I think, about the bush. But this is his article about yellow-bellied possum gliders.
"In the deep treefern gullies where the stately white barrels of lofty manna gums tower high above the tangled creeks, the yellow-bellied possum glider has its home. Very much the same size as the black "flying squirrel" or greater possum glider, the "yellow-belly" is much more fluffy and shorter in length. Its ears are very long, and, like the little sugar squirrel to which it is related, it has a greyish or yellowy brown fur, with a dark line running down the middle of the back.
Its shriek echoing through the still gullies at night is the loudest and most piercing uttered by a gliding marsupial."
FELICITY: I think the accepted, they sound like a pig in a cappuccino machine.
CHRISTINA: Nice.
FELICITY: You know, you get this incredibly, yeah. It's such a distinctive call.
PENNY: Fantastic.
FELICITY: And if you didn't know that it was a gorgeous yellow-bellied glider you may get out of there quick smart.
CHRISTINA: Think there's some wild boar on the way.
PENNY: Yeah. When we went out with my kids, to see the gliders, my daughter came back making the sounds of a yellow-bellied glider.
CHRISTINA: That's restful for the trip home.
PENNY: Yes. I think some people encouraged her to do that. I think Felicity and one of her friends thought that was quite amusing and now any time a yellow-bellied glider is mentioned she gets this little gleam in her eye.
CHRISTINA: And she's off.
PENNY: And once, you see her, cannot stop her. Like she is going to make the yellow-bellied glider sound. The article continues:
"A nonstop floating "leap" by these graceful creatures commonly exceeds 100 yards in the Mt. Wills area of north-eastern Victoria. I have stepped out distances up to 115 yards, in which the swiftly travelling gliders have manoeuvred gracefully between the intervening trunks of 20 or 30 large eucalypts."
So it is amazing how they can fly, isn't it? Glide, they're not flying, technically. I'm not a physicist. Have you seen one fly Felicity? Glide. Sorry.
FELICITY: No. I haven't seen one glide. But I've heard them a lot. And I've seen them. And I love them.
CHRISTINA: I've seen the little sugar gliders gliding. Yep. Quite often. They're very cute. They sort of look like someone leaping out a window with their sleeping bag.
FELICITY: Yes, yes.
PENNY: It does look improbable, doesn't it?
CHRISTINA: It does.
PENNY: Particularly when you see them just sitting on a branch. You think, 'oh, no, no.'
CHRISTINA: And when it all bunches back up again you think, 'oh okay.'
PENNY: Where did that come from? Okay the article then finishes off:
"This species also differs in its feeding methods from other species."
And then he says:
"Further notes on its habits will, follow next week."
CHRISTINA: Dah, dah dah (ominous)
FELICITY: Did it happen?
PENNY: It's a cliffhanger!
CHRISTINA: Wow.
FELICITY: And was there a follow-up?
PENNY: There was. But people had to wait two whole weeks.
CHRISTINA: My gosh.
18:06 PENNY: But I'm nice, so I'm just gonna read it now. Okay.
CHRISTINA: Yeah, thankyou.
PENNY: He continues, and this is from the 26th of April 1941.
"Yellow-bellied Possum-glider
The fluffy and very beautiful marsupial "parachutist," which as the yellow-bellied possum-glider was described a fortnight ago, is entirely different in its feeding habits from the greater or black possum-glider. Both are somewhat similar in size, and both gurgle and shriek loudly in their nightly aerobatics among the tall timbers."
FELICITY: No. The greater gliders don't call out. They just don't.
PENNY: Ah. David Fleay. Anyway, he was good at some things.
"However, the black glider is a leaf-eater like the ringtails, which it resembles, and from which it has evidently developed — particularly as there is today one Queensland ringtail with rudimentary volplaning membranes membranes extending along its flanks. The yellow-bellied glider on the other hand is not a leaf-eater, but it travels far and wide in the gullies at night searching for nectar-laden blossom, sugary exudations from the trees, and for moths, grubs, and-sweet scale insects. Some white barked eucalypts, particularly specimens of the manna gums, are apparently much sweeter than others, and to such trees the "yellow-bellies" return night after slight, using their long mid very sharp lower incisor teeth to chew holes in the trunk."
Felicity's nodding again. David Fleay, you're on a winner now.
"These deep scars, often of a triangular shape, may be seen extending up and down the trunks of such trees where the nocturnal gliders have bitten in for the sap and inner bark.
Food to suit the discerning palate of this gliding creature is not obtained in one or two trees in a small area, and associated with this the "yellowbelly" represents the peak of development among marsupials in the swift method of aerial locomotion.
Members of one family of these pretty gliders which habitually appeared only half an hour after dark. In tall wollybutt trees above my onetime camp on; the slopes of Mt. Wills (V.) were found to live in a hollow tree standing in a deep tangled gully at least a mile away."
So they live in family groups, do they?
FELICITY: Yeah.
PENNY: Do greater gliders?
FELICITY: No, I mean this is kind of interesting. They're a similar sized species but they're so different in their family habits and their eating habits and you know, how they exist. And the yellow-bellied gliders do, they travel in family groups and they have a much wider home-range than a greater glider. I mean, they still need old trees with hollows. Probably because they're, and I'm not a scientist, as you know, but probably because they're having a kind of, you know, high energy, sugar, insects all kinds of
CHRISTINA: They're the party gliders.
FELICITY: Exactly. They've got a lot of energy so they can really, you know, they travel a long way in a short period of time, and they chat to each other while they do it.
PENNY: So they're very vocal.
CHRISTINA: Much more sociable.
FELICITY: And it is wonderful to see the trees where they've been, you know, looking for sap and it's very distinctive, and that's one of the things that surveyors look for when they're looking for yellow-bellied glider habitat.
PENNY: So now we have to talk about threats to gliders.
FELICITY: I understand, and maybe I'm wrong because it's actually hard to keep track, the status of gliders has been declining so steeply that it is literally hard to keep track. My understanding is yellow-bellied gliders are listed as vulnerable in Victoria. Whereas the greater glider is endangered but that may have changed. And certainly the status of greater gliders in New South Wales has recently been upgraded, it's like a downgrade isn't it? But it's upgraded.
PENNY: And the numbers that I've often seen is that in the past 20 years greater glider numbers have decreased by at least 80%.
FELICITY: Yes, that's right.
PENNY: Which is amazing, in the past 20 years.
FELICITY: 20 years. It's just, it's heartbreaking.
22:20 PENNY: So we've got another article by David Fleay. And this is from the Argus on the 31st of January 1939. It's titled 'Tragedy of Fauna; Grim toll of fires'. And this is about the 1939 bushfires. The weather conditions were very bad, there'd been a drought. And they made some pretty poor decisions, I think at the time about how to manage the fires. I think they lit more fires then that got out of control.
CHRISTINA: It's really hot. Light another fire. Seems like the way forward.
PENNY: You know what there isn't enough of? Fires.
FELICITY: And we're still doing that, really. Our fire management policies in Victoria and in Australia lead to more, and worse fires.
PENNY: So about 2 million hectares were burned in that fire season. And David Fleay wrote:
"There have been terrible losses among our fauna In the fires that have devastated much of the forest area in Victoria.
So few and far between are the green gullies that escaped the flames that even animals fortunate enough to escape are now in many cases starving to death.
Big black flying phalangers"
Now flying phalangers. Is it phalangers, or phalangers (different pronunciation).
CHRISTINA: I think it's phalangers.
PENNY: Thank you zoologist. Phalangers. I think it's a great substitute swear word. 'I couldn't give a flying phalanger.'
CHRISTINA: You pack of phalangers.
PENNY: And that's the other thing you've gotta search for in Trove if you want to find greater gliders, 'flying phalangers'. But I have tried, when I found articles about greater gliders to tag them. So if people search for those
CHRISTINA: I love how helpful you are.
PENNY: I feel obliged.
CHRISTINA: I admire that.
PENNY: Cost other people's work helps me so I feel like I need to help future people. Anyway, sorry.
"Big black flying phalangers or possum gilders have been brought to the sanctuary in numbers have been found crawling about in daylight searching for green leaves."
CHRISTINA: That's terrible.
PENNY: And they're very ungainly on the ground aren't they? So once they're not in the trees they're very, very vulnerable.
"They perished in thousands during the fires and their remains are common evidence of the destruction of animals throughout the mountainous country."
We obviously had some pretty bad fires in 2019/20. And when I say pretty bad, they were unprecedented they were much worse than these 1939 fires. In Australia I think 17 million hectares were burned. I did read that 50% of gliders range was burned in 2019 fires. So they are losing a lot of habitat through the fires. Fires are getting worse because of climate change, and we're going to have more fires. So they're losing their habitat already because of fires.
25:19 There was also, in the archives, there was some discussion of other risks to gliders from the 1950s. There was one mention in an article from the Mountain District Free Press about the hunting of gliders. This said on the 25th of October 1951. And it said:
"Bad news from the Dandenong nature lovers' front. The giant Flying Phalanger (also, known as Flying Squirrel) has disappeared even from places where, but some twenty years ago, he used to be found in fair numbers, according to veteran residents. I made some enquiries and discovered to my disgust that this interesting and attractive marsupial's fur is exported to America Where it is in demand in the fashion trade!"
25:51 Which sounds bad, however, after that there was a response from Norman McCance, which was published on the 1st of November 1951. Now Norman McCance was an interesting guy because he was actually started life as a radio wrestling commentator.
CHRISTINA: Niche.
PENNY: Or started his career, he didn't do it when he was a baby. So he was a radio wrestling commentator in the 1920s and then he became a naturalist and he wrote a column
CHRISTINA: It's a natural evolution really.
PENNY: I mean, that's what you used to do, isn't it Christina?
CHRISTINA: Yeah, yeah, that's how we all start off.
PENNY: And boxing. And commentated boxing as well.
CHRISTINA: Yeah, that's right.
PENNY: Anyway, he read this and he was like, 'Er, okay' and so he wrote and he said:
"Sir.—In the excellent and readable "Martin's Column" last week it was stated that the giant flying Phalanger (or Flying Squirrel) has disappeared from these hills because its fur is exported to U.S.A. This is quite incorrect. The fur of these marsupials is unsuitable for furriers, the skin being as thin as paper, while if it could be tanned and processed, only about one in 20 of these I have handled were perfect, the fur being very uneven and patchy."
FELICITY: Which means you are skinning them!
CHRISTINA: Yeah, I think he's given it a crack.
PENNY: Or, there were specimens from museums from, yeah, because they did used to
CHRISTINA: Let's go with that, it's less concerning.
PENNY: "The animal is closely protected and the skins could not be exported, even if they had any value. Moreover, they cannot be trapped like possums, because their nocturnal journeys from tree to tree are aerial and nobody is likely to sit up all night for a worthless skin with cartridges at 1/- each."
Is that one pound or one shilling? Anyway, they're too expensive to shoot. There was another letter where someone said, 'oh no they do trap some of them with poison jam.'
FELICITY: This is so distressing to hear.
CHRISTINA: Who's going out and spreading poison jam?
PENNY: I know. And then also they said it was feral cats as well, were a major threat to greater gliders.
CHRISTINA: You can't always blame feral cats.
FELICITY: No, feral cats can't. There's no way. Not that I would know what a feral cat can do, and I know they cause a lot of damage.
CHRISTINA: More on the ground I would have thought.
FELICITY: Exactly. Greater gliders are just so high up trees.
PENNY: I mean I don't want to exonerate the feral cats at all.
FELICITY: No.
CHRISTINA: But don't make a hat out of them Penny. That's going too far.
PENNY: Norman continues:
"The phalangers are still in our forests in the hills and have been seen at Avonsleigh recently, but being nocturnal and frequenting tall timber, no one sees much of them. They are not as numerous as they were—what native fauna is?"
True.
CHRISTINA: Diplomatic.
PENNY: We've wrecked it all.
"but the factors that have removed their numbers are bush-fires and the felling of big trees. This has driven them back from settled areas where they still hold their own. A factor that may tend to preserve them is that they nest only in hollow eucalypts, generally ignored by axemen."
So basically, what Norman's saying is it's not because people are killing them and exporting their skins. It's because we're chopping down their habitat. It's the habitat loss that's the
CHRISTINA: He's glossed over that a bit. He's sort of sanitised it for the reader.
PENNY: Yeah, and he's had a hopeful thought that maybe it'll be okay because they won't chop down their hollow trees.
FELICITY: We find that greater glider habitat is the exact forest, exactly the same forest that our state logging agency targets. Because it's old forest.
PENNY: And it's still happening?
FELICITY: Yes, 2022 in Victoria. We're still logging the habitat of endangered species.
PENNY: (whispering) 2023.
FELICITY: Oh, 2023. So it's even worse. 2023.
PENNY: Yeah. One year worse.
FELICITY: It's extraordinary that this is still happening.
PENNY: And they need, they need to have hollow trees don't they to nest in? And they tend to need to be older trees too, so younger trees don't have hollows?
FELICITY: Yeah, that's right. So greater gliders they need, like, a big space and so they need trees. I mean, it depends on the species of tree. And it also depends, apparently, on whether or not there's been a bushfire through. So younger stands of forest, mixed-species forest, sometimes there's big enough hollows to accommodate gliders. But in mountain ash forest, so that's Eucalypts regnens, that's kind of the key species of the Central Highlands, generally a tree would need to be 200 years plus for it to be suitable habitat for greater gliders.
PENNY: Right, okay.
FELICITY: And they also need multiple dens. So they don't just have one little home. They have a range.
CHRISTINA: Property portfolio.
FELICITY: Yeah, exactly. It's not one location.
PENNY: Yeah, I didn't know that. That's interesting. And so sometimes I see things about nest boxes. And I know they are helpful for some species but would nest boxes be any good for gliders?
FELICITY: Look, maybe. But it alarms me greatly to hear nest boxes spouted as the solution when we're still cutting down habitat. So if, yes, if stopped logging across all areas of important forest, in fact all areas of forest, because they're not the only species that are in trouble, and we look at who are the scientists that are looking at whether nest boxes work for gliders, yeah, let's support them with that research but you can't really do that and keep cutting down trees, can you?
PENNY: It's very much an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.
CHRISTINA: I mean we've got a number of possum boxes on our property. We've got 4 of them and it gives us a great thrill because there's one on our driveway that we can see and we have our little resident of our brushtail who looks out sometimes as we're coming in or out of the property. So we feel really like we're doing our bit. But I haven't seen them used by anything except ringtails or brushytails, not that obviously I've got greater gliders in my back garden. But I think
PENNY: Well that's the thing, you can't choose which species is gonna use the nest box either.
CHRISTINA: We did have some Indians minors nest in it.
PENNY: Right, which was probably not what
FELICITY: I mean the other important factor is, what are they gonna eat? You know, greater gliders eat a limited number of eucalypt species, so they can't eat their nest box.
PENNY: With the logging of the forest, which is obviously bad for greater gliders, it's bad for a lot of things, it's bad for a lot of species. We're talking about greater gliders, but obviously there's a much broader
CHRISTINA: Huge ramifications.
PENNY: There's a much broader extinction crisis that's happening and it's bad for people as well. Makes bushfires worse, threatens water catchments and it costs us money. And VicForests actually, in their Annual Report last year posted a loss of $54 million and they all received subsidies, they got money from the Victorian Government already of $25 million. So,
CHRISTINA: To keep logging?
PENNY: Yes, to keep logging and most of the, what they produce goes into making paper and supermarket pallets.
FELICITY: Yeah, that's right, low value. It's not like these wood from these important trees is used to make violins or tables at all.
PENNY: And things that have another way that you could, they have another, they could be replaced with something else that's not
FELICITY: Absolutely, it's, logging in Victoria is a filthy, corrupt and dirty disgrace that really needs to stop. And you know, of course, the other thing, not only are they heavily subsidized, they all receive conservation money. Our government say, 'look we've put however many millions dollars into conservation efforts' but that includes money that goes to VicForests to not log certain areas of important habitat. So how that is a good use of conservation money I just don't really understand. I mean I'm not going to pretend. I think the system is appalling.
PENNY: Yeah, we're not both-sidesing this one either. This is an anti-logging podcast. Anti-native forest logging, I should say. Because it's actually quite a small proportion of even the forestry industry.
34:21 Now this is also depressing. I've got another article. Sorry about this. This is from the 15th of May 1953. It was in the Sun in Sydney. And it's titled, 'Uni couldn't save rare animal'.

"One of the rarer examples of NSW wild life - a greater flying phalanger was kept alive at Sydney University for a month on a diet of apple sprinkled with sugar and cream."
CHRISTINA: Wow. That's so disturbing.
PENNY: Yeah.
"The animal, which was rescued from a barbed wire fence on the NSW-Queensland border — died last weekend Director of Research at the new Medical School, Dr. A. Bolliger, tried to keep the creature alive. Dr. Bolliger said today that the animal was a marsupial, similar to a possum. It is gradually becoming extinct as its natural habitat — tall gum trees — disappear."
This was in 1953. So they knew.
"The animal has pouches of skin like a bat which enable it to fly from tree to tree. The specimen which died at the University had sooty black fur and was about four feet long."
So, look, it feels like the university maybe did not do the best ever effort of looking after this
CHRISTINA: No, it's ridiculous.
PENNY: Sugar and apples not, maybe not the best. But generally, gliders don't do well in captivity, anyway.
FELICITY: No.
PENNY: Even when you don't feed it apple crumble.
FELICITY: I mean I don't think there are any at Healesville. You know, they just don't survive.
PENNY: Other articles from around this time. People would sometimes rescue a glider that they found on a barbed wire fence and say to the zoo, 'do you want it?' and the zoo said no because we can't keep them alive. So captive breeding isn't an option for gliders.
36:15 So if people want to help gliders, is what we've talked about today, is what gliders need is their homes. They need their habitat.
FELICITY: Can I mention our court case?
PENNY: I would love you to mention the court case. Cos this is uplifting.
FELICITY: Yes, actually this is terrific.
PENNY: This is exciting.
FELICITY: I'm involved with a group called Kinglake Friends of the Forest and our group alongside Environment East Gippsland and Gippsland Environment Group have successfully argued in court and won a case that has been about greater gliders and yellow-bellied gliders. And effectively our court case has really brought the whole disgusting logging industry in Victoria to its knees.
CHRISTINA: Wow.
FELICITY: It's incredible really. And I'm very, very proud that that's happened.
CHRISTINA: You should be.
FELICITY: So what we've argued in court, which has been accepted, is that before an area of forest is logged, before an area of native forest is logged, the area should be surveyed for greater gliders.
PENNY: Surveyed properly as well.
CHRISTINA: Not a 'Nah, can't see any here.'
FELICITY: Exactly, which is basically what's happened over many years. You know, logging agencies don't want to find animals so they don't look and they just log. So what used to happen they would just log and not know what was there and then everything would die. So we argued that areas should be adequately surveyed, so comprehensive surveys and then once animals are detected in an area then there should be a protection of the home range, so that the tree in which the animal's found and then surrounding habitat and other features like, the waterways, which usually accommodate larger populations. So we successfully argued this, which means that now before logging occurs in Victoria you know there needs to be comprehensive surveying.
CHRISTINA: Well done.
FELICITY: Basically, if we find gliders then the area is saved from logging. So there are huge efforts underway to go surveying, spotlight surveying. The greater glider is a really helpful animal to, for a kind of everyday person off the street to survey. You don't need special skills and equipment. You just need a little bit of training. Gliders when you shine a torch on them in a tree, they're curious, they will look back at you. They won't move, you know. They're slow moving.
PENNY: They don't mind noise.
FELICITY: They don't mind noise. And so, I've done this. I fumble with the camera and I can't get the torch in the right place and it takes me 15 minutes to get my act together to be able to locate, get the GPS set up, hardly a refined wildlife surveyor. The greater glider just sits there waiting. So it's perfect for everyday people.
CHRISTINA: Loves the paparazzi.
FELICITY: Yes. So really, surveying a forest can be undertaken really by a lot of people.
PENNY: Yeah, so people can.
FELICITY: We want people to get involved in surveying.
PENNY: I'll put in the show, I'll put links that people can click if they're interested in coming along.
FELICITY: Yes, so we're really trying to build up surveying capacity. Volunteer surveying capacity. We still don't trust that VicForests will adequately survey so we're going to be surveying all the areas, and we are.
PENNY: And what about just your normal contacting politicians.
FELICITY: Look, sure.
PENNY: I feel like they have been told.
FELICITY: Yeah you know. Yes well, but actually the industry's on its knees. I don't think it's gonna hurt. Everyone should be contacting their local MP saying 'What's this about logging in Victoria it needs to stop'. Actually if enough people did that the industry it would be, it would be closed tomorrow. So political pressure.
PENNY: And it's very easy to call. Cos I used to be very nervous about things like this, but it's so easy to call a politicians office. The person on the phone, you're probably not gonna get to speak to thepolitician, but they'll take your message, you're not gonna have an argument. You just say what you want to say.
FELICITY: Yes.
PENNY: And they'll pass it on. So it's very easy.
FELICITY: Yes. So the other important thing that I'd just like to mention. Although we've run the court case about glider species, it's everything in a forest that's important. You protect a glider you protect all sorts of, the invertebrates, the moths, the microbats, all of it.
CHRISTINA: Absolutely.
PENNY: And also carbon storage, as well.
FELICITY: Yes, well, I'm laughing nervously but our native forests in Victoria are amongst the most carbon dense in the world it's the truth. So we really need the carbon storage.
PENNY: It's very expensive running these legal cases.
FELICITY: Yes, it sure is.
PENNY: There are also groups you can donate to as well.
FELICITY: There are lots of wonderful forest groups that deserve support. The Victorian Forest Alliance is now an overarching umbrella group so they're a good agency to look up and support and in fact anyone, any of the smaller environment groups that are taking on the state logging agency need financial support.
PENNY: I think that court case is so exciting and I would, it's Erin Brockovich kind of stuff. Like, they'll make a movie about it one day, I really hope it's the end of the industry and the start of
FELICITY: It is actually amazing. Kinglake Friends of the Forest, our group, we're a bunch of middle-aged to older women, none of us are trained. You know, we just love the forest. And we've won against the big juggernauts. So it's pretty good.
CHRISTINA: It's absolutely amazing.
PENNY: It's very exciting.
FELICITY: But it's pretty great but anyone who wants to come out spotlighting all they have to do is call me and we'll work it out. There's a lot to still celebrate and the other thing is there's a lot that's still worth saving so people think, 'Oh you know, we've been logging for this long, it's finished, we've lost everything that's valuable', and actually that's not true, there's really important areas that are still worth fighting for. The fight for forests has been going on for a long time.
PENNY: Exactly.
FELICITY: And there have been a lot of people who have put in really, really hard yards and actually had some big wins. If you look at what's actually been protected. Bit by bit, like it all kind of adds up and it means that we're in this situation that we've still got forest that's worth fighting for because of the people who've been fighting before. It's a really long. It's hard yards. I feel like we've reached a point now we're it's on a knife edge, it has to fall over the industry has to collapse. Maybe it's already collapsed. I like to think it has. We'll see what happens this year.
PENNY: Excellent. And we talked at the start about Trove needing ongoing funding. And obviously you can't compare the loss cultural knowledge and the loss of biodiversity and species, but I do think the common thing is a sort of a short-term thinking. And not thinking about what people are going to need in the future.
CHRISTINA: Absolutely.
PENNY: So thank you Christina and Felicity. People will like to learn about gliders. Some people think they're birds Felicity.
44.35 (Piano music)
PENNY: Okay you can do it.
(screeching sound like a pig in a cappuccino machine)
PENNY: Thank you.